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Old 01-13-2024, 11:10 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,151 posts, read 23,799,416 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post
If God knew men would choose evil, He would not have created man.
So he's not all-knowing.

Thanks for admitting that.
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Old 01-13-2024, 11:15 AM
 
63,391 posts, read 39,647,364 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech View Post
Huh?

You're the one who says that an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-benevolent being exists. Not me.
This is the crux of the issue - the imagined attributes of God. It is not at all surprising that our imaginations and wishful thinking have created attributes that conflict with experienced Reality. We have very creative imaginations. My approach has been to assume nothing about God (except God's existence which was made real to me) and let the science and my experiences speak for themselves. To date, I can only accept omnipresence and omnibenevolence. Since knowledge as we conceive it is in our consciousness and our consciousness resides within God's, God surely knows whatever we know collectively, but as to what is not known yet I am ambivalent.

The omnipotence is questionable or we would not have Dominion here and have to subdue and endure this life. It is only by encountering the existence of good and evil that our consciousness learns the difference and makes choices about which we prefer (which of the two inner wolves to feed?). Our choices in those matters define us (what kind of Spirit we BECOME), IMO. Consequences from what we have BECOME constitute the only "Final Judgment" I envision. The utility of punishment or vengeance in service to our human concept of "justice" is entirely of human origin and inapplicable in the grand scheme of things as I see it.
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Old 01-13-2024, 11:45 AM
 
2,297 posts, read 1,390,695 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
No, your whole purpose for being on this forum is to preach. You do it almost every day in very long posts where you simply state the way it is, and then pretend you want a discussion.

Everyone knows what I believe. I don't hide that in my posts. If by saying I'm a believer is preaching, there's nothing I can do about that. Yet I'm not here saying in my posts everyone should convert. That to most people would be preaching. But the thoughts of this topic isn't something I came up with. The problem with God's existence and evil has always been around. Now if God does exist, and we want Him to do something about the problem of evil, there should be no problem once He judges evil. Yet there are just as many arguments about how God judges evil, as they are for God allowing evil. If we have a problem with both ends, what is God to do?
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Old 01-13-2024, 11:57 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,151 posts, read 23,799,416 times
Reputation: 32538
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post
Everyone knows what I believe. I don't hide that in my posts. If by saying I'm a believer is preaching, there's nothing I can do about that. Yet I'm not here saying in my posts everyone should convert. That to most people would be preaching. But the thoughts of this topic isn't something I came up with. The problem with God's existence and evil has always been around. Now if God does exist, and we want Him to do something about the problem of evil, there should be no problem once He judges evil. Yet there are just as many arguments about how God judges evil, as they are for God allowing evil. If we have a problem with both ends, what is God to do?
You wouldn't like my answer
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Old 01-13-2024, 12:08 PM
Status: "Without God, life is tragic and absurd." (set 25 days ago)
 
Location: Free State of Texas
20,363 posts, read 12,642,197 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post
If God knew men would choose evil, He would not have created man.
You really believe that?
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Old 01-13-2024, 12:09 PM
Status: "Without God, life is tragic and absurd." (set 25 days ago)
 
Location: Free State of Texas
20,363 posts, read 12,642,197 times
Reputation: 2470
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaic View Post
One might think that preventing the evil from happening in the first place would be a much better use of omniscience and omnipotence than punishing the miscreant after other people/animals/the planet had suffered.
That would leave us without the ability to choose, no?
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Old 01-13-2024, 12:10 PM
Status: "Without God, life is tragic and absurd." (set 25 days ago)
 
Location: Free State of Texas
20,363 posts, read 12,642,197 times
Reputation: 2470
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
No, your whole purpose for being on this forum is to preach. You do it almost every day in very long posts where you simply state the way it is, and then pretend you want a discussion.
What is your purpose here?
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Old 01-13-2024, 12:17 PM
 
2,297 posts, read 1,390,695 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Horn of ‘83 View Post
You really believe that?
Yes, based on God's sorrow in Genesis 6. Noah found God's grace, and God intended for all men to find it. Jesus once said of the man who would betray Him, it would have been better had that man never been born. I don't believe Jesus was just saying it in vain. Of course as we know, none of us choose to be born, so this man who would betray Jesus (who turned out to be Judas) had no choice over his birth. What I believe Jesus is saying is God wouldn't have done the things that led to Judas' birth, ie the creation of man ultimately, if He knew this was how things "were" going to turn out.


Yet as I stated concerning choices, they are not set in stone. There is no "will do" when it comes to our choices.
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Old 01-13-2024, 12:27 PM
Status: "Without God, life is tragic and absurd." (set 25 days ago)
 
Location: Free State of Texas
20,363 posts, read 12,642,197 times
Reputation: 2470
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post
Yes, based on God's sorrow in Genesis 6. Noah found God's grace, and God intended for all men to find it. Jesus once said of the man who would betray Him, it would have been better had that man never been born. I don't believe Jesus was just saying it in vain. Of course as we know, none of us choose to be born, so this man who would betray Jesus (who turned out to be Judas) had no choice over his birth. What I believe Jesus is saying is God wouldn't have done the things that led to Judas' birth, ie the creation of man ultimately, if He knew this was how things "were" going to turn out.


Yet as I stated concerning choices, they are not set in stone. There is no "will do" when it comes to our choices.
It’s hard to believe God did not know what would happen. The fall of mankind was foreknown by God and the crucifixion of Christ, the atonement for God’s elect, was foreordained by God.
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Old 01-13-2024, 12:36 PM
 
2,297 posts, read 1,390,695 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Horn of ‘83 View Post
It’s hard to believe God did not know what would happen. The fall of mankind was foreknown by God and the crucifixion of Christ, the atonement for God’s elect, was foreordained by God.

Scripture tells us all who believe on Jesus, were chosen in Him "before" the foundation of the world. Then later on we have the mention that Jesus, the Lamb was slain "from" the foundation of the world. So God had a plan for us before He created, but Jesus was slain from the foundation. Which I believe is saying the world was in existence when Jesus was slain from its beginning.


Long story short, it was at the moment of Adam's sin, where God prophesied man's redemption in the Seed of the woman. God always intended for us to be joined to Jesus before our creation, but Jesus' being slain to do it came in with Adam's sin. If Adam never sinned, we would have been joined with Jesus through another way not requiring Jesus dying.
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