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Old 01-13-2024, 11:57 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,759 posts, read 24,261,465 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Horn of ‘83 View Post
What is your purpose here?
1. To occasionally point out that not all people in the world, or right here at home, are christians.
2. Not to turn anyone into a Buddhist or atheist, but to make christian-power neanderthals know that they have limits...that the world belongs to everyone.
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Old 01-13-2024, 12:19 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
19,956 posts, read 13,450,937 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post
If God knew men would choose evil, He would not have created man.
Then that is your theodicy -- god is not all-knowing. It is one way to solve the riddle.

It even makes a kind of sense: many people will tell you if they had truly understood what a crap shoot having kids is, how even under ideal circumstances you're never right, never do enough, and never do it right ... they would not have bothered. I can see god feeling like that if he were operating under some illusory desired relationship with his creations and then being disappointed. The Bible even says in the preamble to the flood legend that "it repented god that he had made man".
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Old 01-13-2024, 12:27 PM
 
Location: Free State of Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post
Scripture tells us all who believe on Jesus, were chosen in Him "before" the foundation of the world. Then later on we have the mention that Jesus, the Lamb was slain "from" the foundation of the world. So God had a plan for us before He created, but Jesus was slain from the foundation. Which I believe is saying the world was in existence when Jesus was slain from its beginning.


Long story short, it was at the moment of Adam's sin, where God prophesied man's redemption in the Seed of the woman. God always intended for us to be joined to Jesus before our creation, but Jesus' being slain to do it came in with Adam's sin. If Adam never sinned, we would have been joined with Jesus through another way not requiring Jesus dying.
And I believe it means it was originally God’s plan.
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Old 01-13-2024, 12:33 PM
 
Location: Free State of Texas
20,438 posts, read 12,775,263 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
1. To occasionally point out that not all people in the world, or right here at home, are christians.
2. Not to turn anyone into a buddhist or atheist, but to make christian-power neanderthals know that they have limits...that the world belongs to everyone.
Let’s be honest. You’re here to bash Christianity, all day, every day.
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Old 01-13-2024, 12:48 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,759 posts, read 24,261,465 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Horn of ‘83 View Post
Let’s be honest. You’re here to bash Christianity, all day, every day.
Let's be honest, when christians stop bashing other world religions, and when christians stop abusing power, there will be no need to bash christianity. I know it's uncomfortable for you to feel like some of the rest of us feel living in a country where the dominant religion is not ours. I've seen that happen with different religions in other countries as well. I've had Chinese and Hindus tell me how they feel in Malaysia and I've had Muslims tell me how they feel in Thailand. Quit dishing it out, and no one will have to dish it back. Stop trying to dominate national politics.
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Old 01-13-2024, 02:23 PM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post
That said, if free will does exist, then our choices aren't set in stone.
Free will (in the true, metaphysical sense I mean, not just conceptual compatibilism weak-sauce sense), doesn't exist. It's an illogical concept in the first place. It doesn't actually exist in our physical universe, either for the dumbest fish alive, or the smartest human alive.

And what does "not set in stone" even mean? If you ask me to pick a number 1-10, whether my choice is based on my genetics/environment/how my brain is wired/mood today/some reason for picking a number that I like, that I'm not fully conscious of/ultimately based on physics (causal determinism/quantum randomness/whatever), or whether it's a choice I make using your magical, supernatural 'free will' ability you think I have, the choice I make is the choice I make. It then becomes set in stone that in that instant of time, I chose that particular number. I can't go back in time and change what happened. The passage of time is set in stone, whether 'free will' exists or not.

Quote:
Thus even though God is all knowing, when it comes to what "will" happen (the choice we make), there is nothing to know.
LOL @ your thread being called "Is this having it both ways?", and then you say something like this.

How convenient for you that God is all-knowing, and also doesn't know stuff.

For the like 100th time, if the God character you believe in exists, with the properties ascribed to him, and he literally created all of existence and the way it all works as well as exactly every little detail about everything in the universe (including us and our brains), knows the presence of every particle at every moment of time in all history, then how would such an all-knowing and all-powerful being not know what's going to happen at each next passing moment? How does that logic work?

Quote:
You see before Adam and Eve were created, they didn't exist. If they didn't exist, how can God know the choice "they would" make, when they didn't exist? They were nothing, and thus their "choices" were nothing as well. After Adam and Eve were created, now there is something to know. Of course at that point, even if God knew every single choice by man that "would" happen, now that man exist, everything has already been set in motion. God won't reverse man's creation, no matter how much He hates the choices we make. Yet like I said, our choices aren't set in stone. There is no "would" or "will". There is only possibility and God's own grace.
What?

Again, you're saying that God had literally just designedthis guy Adam, including every little detail about Adam's brain and how it all works. Right? And God also created the whole universe that Adam's in, and determines how physics works, which comprises everything in Adam's brain, that he just created.

How could A) God not know what Adam was going to do, and B) hate what Adam does? Does God hate himself? Is that what you're saying? Because he specifically created and designed everything in this whole equation you are saying that he hates.

Quote:
Now with this topic I wanted to take it to God's ultimate judgments of evil. The things happening on this earth are horrible and frightening. People suffer and die all the time. Yet if God exists, and my God is Yahweh, then this life is temporary. The next life is eternal. (According to my understanding of Scripture) Ultimately, God will judge all the evil that has gone on in this world, and will give life to those who have suffered through no fault of their own. So its not like people will get away with the harm they done. In the end, for one who receives eternal life, the pain they experienced on this planet won't be worth remembering.

So within the context of this thread, some might say God allowing all the pain and not doing anything about it is unjust. Yet when He ultimately does something about it, the same might say that is unjust. Putting aside all the "natural" disasters and diseases aside for a second, people have a problem with God allowing things like murder to go on. We have a problem with the pain people cause other people, that kind of evil, and seemingly not doing anything about it. Yet when God does ultimately judge people for their evil, some say it is overkill. I wonder how many have a problem with an unrepentant Hitler being cast into the Lake of Fire? All those who done evil right up until their last breath? Is God unjust for condemning them to an eternal punishment?
Once again, why would Hitler deserve any afterlife punishment at all? Let alone infinity torture, for a guy who only lived a few decades.

Everything about Hitler, everything he did, was what he was capable of doing. No more and no less. Just like every single other creature that's ever lived. Everything that went on in his brain (subconscious or otherwise), was ultimately, at the end of the day, all caused/influenced by every factor, that Hitler didn't actually choose, at least in a metaphysical sense. He didn't choose his parents, environment, circumstances, the way his brain works, his emotions and anger and frustrations, his narrow view of the world through that lens, his limited understanding of morality... etc. His actions may have been bad, and we can judge them as social humans, but ultimately they all happened because of his limitations, the various factors that caused them, and ultimately, the physics of the universe and how it all played out.

We may think Hitler was bad, from our point of view. But the God you believe in, with his infinite, total and complete knowledge, wisdom, and power, surely would understand that Hitler (as an individual being, or 'self', if that's even a thing) could not have possibly been anything other than what he was. Whether deterministically or otherwise.

And so, if there's an afterlife of bliss and pure understanding and forgiveness from a one true God, then Hitler 'deserves' to go there just like every other being, including every atheist.

Your belief in Hell is as sad, pathetic, and tiny, as your belief in your sad, pathetic, and tiny version of God.
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Old 01-13-2024, 03:51 PM
 
63,775 posts, read 40,038,426 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Horn of ‘83 View Post
Let’s be honest. You’re here to bash Christianity, all day, every day.
I would agree and that seems to apply to most of the atheists here since the generic concept of God holds little interest for them. They are focused entirely on the human-created attributes of God which are easily refuted. Sadly, all that does is indict the religious dogmas ABOUT GOD, NOT the existence of God, per se. Minimize the imagined or demanded attributes of God to those that can be reasonably inferred about what created us and everything and the task of refutation becomes more rigorous. The latter is a far more challenging task that most atheists (and theists) are not up to.
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Old 01-13-2024, 04:09 PM
 
Location: a little corner of a very big universe
867 posts, read 721,273 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Horn of ‘83 View Post
That would leave us without the ability to choose, no?

No, not at all. This is hypothetical, of course (I'm an atheist), but a god could, one would think, let people choose to do evil things and then swat them down before they do harm to the innocent.
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Old 01-13-2024, 05:55 PM
 
Location: NSW
3,796 posts, read 2,992,667 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post
Many would say if God exists, He is unjust for allowing evil to take place in this world. Yet when God judges evil, the same may say God's judgment is unjust. Is this not having it both ways?
I think there’s been similar threads to this, just worded differently.
God turning a blind eye to what’s happening on earth does seem a bit blasé, especially when some Christian groups believe everything is predetermined.
I’ve probably got more of an issue with some of the monstrous acts in the OT, even if they are probably storytelling and not supported by any historical or scientific evidence anyway.
God saying that He’s a “jealous God” with respect to idolatry, then commands us not to covet in the same breath , does seem to reek of double standards too.
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Old 01-14-2024, 08:18 AM
 
2,410 posts, read 1,443,647 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech View Post
Free will (in the true, metaphysical sense I mean, not just conceptual compatibilism weak-sauce sense), doesn't exist. It's an illogical concept in the first place. It doesn't actually exist in our physical universe, either for the dumbest fish alive, or the smartest human alive.

And what does "not set in stone" even mean? If you ask me to pick a number 1-10, whether my choice is based on my genetics/environment/how my brain is wired/mood today/some reason for picking a number that I like, that I'm not fully conscious of/ultimately based on physics (causal determinism/quantum randomness/whatever), or whether it's a choice I make using your magical, supernatural 'free will' ability you think I have, the choice I make is the choice I make. It then becomes set in stone that in that instant of time, I chose that particular number. I can't go back in time and change what happened. The passage of time is set in stone, whether 'free will' exists or not.

If it becomes set in stone, then we agree at one point it was not set. This is what I'm referring to. The future is not set in stone when it comes to our choices. (And ultimately there are only two choices. Life or Death, which those two choices encompasses all consequence)


You believe free will choice doesn't exist because you see all our actions are the ultimate result of physical processes going on in our brain, and the chemistry/physics of the universe. I believe those processes are necessary to help us function in the physical world, but they do not determine how we live our lives. For instance, I could get a brain injury that causes me to think differently, even to the point I develop another personality compared to how I was previously. Some might say that would prove free will doesn't exist metaphysically. However, if I'm made aware of this change (through word of family and friends, through videos, photos, etc...), I can acknowledge the personality shift was due to the brain injury. I can try to graft in my previous ways into my new, or attempt return back to the old, or accept the new all together. All of that are choices I am free to make. The brain is just a tool, physics are just a tool.


In hypothesis, according to Scripture, God offers us a brand new tool. His own nature, which we use to go above and beyond the limitations of this world. Because if our brains (tools) become damaged enough, we won't be able to function at all. And we all know physics is running down. God's nature on the other hand lasts forever. So this is where our free will choice would ultimately come into play. Yes, I don't believe our awareness is an illusion!


Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech View Post

LOL @ your thread being called "Is this having it both ways?", and then you say something like this.

How convenient for you that God is all-knowing, and also doesn't know stuff.

For the like 100th time, if the God character you believe in exists, with the properties ascribed to him, and he literally created all of existence and the way it all works as well as exactly every little detail about everything in the universe (including us and our brains), knows the presence of every particle at every moment of time in all history, then how would such an all-knowing and all-powerful being not know what's going to happen at each next passing moment? How does that logic work?

When it comes to our choices, as I said, its not set in stone. God certainly knows everything that can happen. Yet He's nudging us to where He wants us to go. We may reject His path, or accept. Its that aspect where there is nothing to know because it is not set. When it comes to the future of our choices, its like both choices are equally valid, and are happening at the same time. Its only when we make the choice, that one becomes valid. God sees our hearts (our thoughts and nature) and knows which we are likely to choose left to ourselves. Yet He is nudging us to the choices that leads to life.


This is the concept if true.


Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech View Post
What?

Again, you're saying that God had literally just designedthis guy Adam, including every little detail about Adam's brain and how it all works. Right? And God also created the whole universe that Adam's in, and determines how physics works, which comprises everything in Adam's brain, that he just created.

How could A) God not know what Adam was going to do, and B) hate what Adam does? Does God hate himself? Is that what you're saying? Because he specifically created and designed everything in this whole equation you are saying that he hates.

Let me add this in. The universe God created, and mankind, is not the same as we see it today. Nothing is operating now as God intended. So there was a self-destruct mechanism within the code of the original creation, written in Adam's disobedience. (God allowed this of course) So within the original creation, everything was very good, to God's taste. If Adam and Eve continued in obedience to God (if Satan continued in obedience), everything would have remained functioning the way God loved it. Adam's obedience and disobedience weren't set in stone. He was free to choose.


Now in the perfect world, the metaphysics and our perfect brain should have kept us to God's taste. To make us do what He wanted. Yet because we fell, if anything else this would prove free will exists. So all this entails Adam and Eve being a free will agent, being unique beings placed in the universe. (Not just apart of the universe as you believe based on observable science) If that is true, certainly before Adam and Eve's existence, there would be nothing to know on their choices and their will. They didn't exist before creation, so they were nothing. If they were nothing before existence, how can their specific choices be something? So God can be all knowing, and not know where there is nothing to know. Now after creation, it gets trickier concerning what God knows. (because the future of our choices are not set in stone)


Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech View Post
Once again, why would Hitler deserve any afterlife punishment at all? Let alone infinity torture, for a guy who only lived a few decades.

Everything about Hitler, everything he did, was what he was capable of doing. No more and no less. Just like every single other creature that's ever lived. Everything that went on in his brain (subconscious or otherwise), was ultimately, at the end of the day, all caused/influenced by every factor, that Hitler didn't actually choose, at least in a metaphysical sense. He didn't choose his parents, environment, circumstances, the way his brain works, his emotions and anger and frustrations, his narrow view of the world through that lens, his limited understanding of morality... etc. His actions may have been bad, and we can judge them as social humans, but ultimately they all happened because of his limitations, the various factors that caused them, and ultimately, the physics of the universe and how it all played out.

We may think Hitler was bad, from our point of view. But the God you believe in, with his infinite, total and complete knowledge, wisdom, and power, surely would understand that Hitler (as an individual being, or 'self', if that's even a thing) could not have possibly been anything other than what he was. Whether deterministically or otherwise.

And so, if there's an afterlife of bliss and pure understanding and forgiveness from a one true God, then Hitler 'deserves' to go there just like every other being, including every atheist.

Your belief in Hell is as sad, pathetic, and tiny, as your belief in your sad, pathetic, and tiny version of God.

Hitler obviously believe what he did was wrong, or he wouldn't have killed himself. If he knew what he did was wrong, just as we know what he did is wrong, then he is worthy of condemnation. Of course the eternal aspect of the judgment being valid, that comes down to the actual seriousness of the crimes. If we had the chance to put Hitler on trial, he would have been executed. To us, that is the ultimate punishment we can deliver. If we could do more than that, we would. God can do more, though He gets no pleasure in it.


Ultimately if Hitler knew what he did was wrong, then he had the free will choice to change his actions. Yet he freely chose to go all the way with his evil. He wasn't a slave to physics. He was just as capable of not doing what he did. This is what God will judge Hitler for.
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