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Old 01-14-2024, 07:36 PM
 
63,803 posts, read 40,068,856 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech View Post
And also, more basically, just because this entire concept of 'free will' doesn't make sense. It breaks down further and further the more you actually bother to logically analyze it.

For example. If you give me the choice of vanilla or chocolate ice cream, I'm going to choose vanilla, because I prefer vanilla. Did I choose to have this preference of the taste of vanilla? No, I didn't. Nor, did I choose any of the things about me (or my genetics/background/whatever) that caused me to have that preference.

If I consciously chose instead to pick chocolate, the one that I don't prefer the flavor of, then, again, I didn't choose to have the whatever character traits that caused me to weirdly pick that masochistic choice of the ice cream flavor that I didn't prefer.

Our choices and decisions we make, all come from who we are. We are not the ultimate, original cause of who we are. That is why we don't have free will, and why the concept doesn't even make sense.

Every time you cite a particular reasoning for why you made a particular choice, I could then ask you the question, "why?" And then we could keep going down layer after layer of reasons why, until eventually, inevitably, you don't know the reason why. Or it's because of something you inherited from your parents, which you had no choice in.

You didn't choose the various influences and factors that all caused you to be exactly the person you are at this moment, be that genetics, environment, circumstance, the nature of how your brain is wired, whatever. You didn't choose any of that.

Even if you have a 'soul' which magically causes your personality or whatever, then, again, you didn't choose that soul. Still the same logic problem.

Also, whenever you think you are making a conscious choice, your subconscious brain has already decided on that choice, before you were aware of it. They're actually even conducting some scientific brain studies now that are starting to show evidence of this. Thoughts and actions don't originate in our consciousness.

Our being within a causal physical universe (whether deterministic or not, each event that occurs would still be causal by the universe in some way), is only yet another reason why there's no actual free will. Even if we take that out, free will is still shaky ground nonsense anyway. So, yeah.

Yeah, but still, see above. Everything about you that would cause you to do that, or to do whatever you do, is a result of being the person that you are, which ultimately you didn't choose to be.
<snip>
You are extremely verbose and very committed to your irresponsibility (meaning you reject all responsibility for who and what you are or do despite it being the outgrowth of YOUR decisions in life). You essentially reject your existence as an illusion. You do not exist according to your reasoning so there is no YOU to make decisions about anything. Decisions do not exist because there is no one to make them.

Absurd! You exist but you are BECOMING what you claim you already are! That is what growth and maturity is all about. You are NOT "who you ARE." You are who you are BECOMING as you react to this life and its vicissitudes by your decisions. Who you are is a SPIRIT existing at a high-energy level while growing, developing, and maturing in a low-energy level material venue and body (Spiritual womb).

That is why you misunderstand the unconscious. It is not simple or easy to wrap your mind around, so it is not your fault. Your unconscious is the REAL you doing all the experiencing and reacting to the REAL world. It all happens at the high-energy and frequency level of quanta (think "light speed") well beyond our low frequency and low energy level of material existence. Our conscious awareness as we experience it is a "delayed playback" of what our REAL self has already experienced but is "played" at the low-energy level and frequency of material existence. (This is the source of the confusion in the double-slit experiments, I believe.)

Our cognitive awareness of Reality is kind of a permanent version of the victims in the movie "The Sting" always behind and unaware that what they are experiencing has already occurred. I suspect the occasional precognitive experiences and other odd psychic anecdotes are the result of some "leakage" from our REAL Self. The higher level of existence is the REAL level of existence which is why death at this level of existence is not an actual "death." It is a "birth" severing the "umbilical cord" (brain) to the "material womb." (Think unplugging from the Matrix).
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Old 01-14-2024, 10:21 PM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
9,830 posts, read 7,259,585 times
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It's the sense of self that is the illusion- the one that I feel is inside my body, making decisions. That's all an illusion. The person that is sitting here in this chair exists. My consciousness most definitely exists, as it is an experience that I am experiencing right now. Everything that I am actually experiencing is real. There are different meanings that people may mean by the term 'self', so that can give rise to confusion.

What I am saying is illusory (I am not a Buddhist but this is something like what Buddhists believe), is this sense that I feel of being a continuous 'self' that is somehow separate from the rest of myself, or my body or brain. There is no way that that self could exist, because the brain is constantly in motion and process. There would be no static place for it to go or hide.

I'm talking about the part of me that is the one that feels like he's making the choices. And the ego of me. That's the guy that is an illusion. That's why it pertains to the whole free will topic, because that sense, is also an illusion. There's no free will, and there's no self that could have free will. Of course here is a person, there is a human, absolutely. There is a physical body and brain, there is the conceptual entity that is me, along with my place in society, and of course there is this consciousness. None of that is an illusion.
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Old 01-15-2024, 07:47 AM
 
Location: Free State of Texas
20,440 posts, read 12,783,448 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Let's be honest, when christians stop bashing other world religions, and when christians stop abusing power, there will be no need to bash christianity. I know it's uncomfortable for you to feel like some of the rest of us feel living in a country where the dominant religion is not ours. I've seen that happen with different religions in other countries as well. I've had Chinese and Hindus tell me how they feel in Malaysia and I've had Muslims tell me how they feel in Thailand. Quit dishing it out, and no one will have to dish it back. Stop trying to dominate national politics.
Are you suggesting Christians should not vote their conscience? What about those of different beliefs?
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Old 01-15-2024, 07:47 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
19,994 posts, read 13,470,976 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You are extremely verbose and very committed to your irresponsibility (meaning you reject all responsibility for who and what you are or do despite it being the outgrowth of YOUR decisions in life).
I also lean towards hard determinism these days and there are different flavors of it that reconcile it with personal responsibility. That the self is an illusion or that free will in the sense people usually mean it is lacking does not have to equate to "anything goes". In practice, it most certainly does not.

What I like about hard determinism is that it allows one to get away from salvation projects because at the species level, humanity isn't "savable". I believe that humanism suffers from this delusion also that we can perfect or transform humanity as a species. In the same way that [insert any random animal here, let's pick "dolphins"] dolphins will still be dolphins 10,000 years from now (apart from perhaps some little smidgen of evolutionary change that wouldn't even likely be detectable), so humans will still be humans. To say otherwise is a form of manifest destiny / human exceptionalism. We are unique in certain ways, but no more so than dolphins are unique in certain ways from other creatures, else we would not have a separate classification for them.

All this is very deflating to human hubris / pride but also very true.

But that humans are limited to their humanity as a species, does not mean that individual humans can't transcend aspects of that, to make themselves the best and sometimes extraordinary exemplars of the species. And that is the motivation behind personal responsibility. It produces civil society ultimately, which raises the quality of life for everyone. Sadly, human society is constantly disintegrating and has to be periodically rebuilt.
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Old 01-15-2024, 08:06 AM
 
2,412 posts, read 1,446,664 times
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Originally Posted by primaltech View Post
I'm a better person than God, according to you. I'm more enlightened than your God, apparently. Because I don't think Hitler, OJ Simpson, or anyone that's ever lived, deserves God's judgement for being what they were/are. Rather they deserve the same total empathy and total understanding from such a God (if one existed), that every human being ever would all equally deserve.

Hitler didn't choose his biology/genetics, his awful father, the era and the situation going on at that time and place with the Weimar republic, or anything else about his environment or circumstances. He didn't choose his beliefs (because no one does). When we break it down, he didn't actually choose his actions (because no one actually does, because there is no actual free will).

It's weird to think about, but ultimately, essentially the universe chose Hitler to commit those atrocities and gas 6 million Jews. There is no free will.

Humans punishing Hitler in a court of law (if he had not killed himself) would have been understandably necessary for deterrence of that behavior we abhor, in our human society.

But an omnipotent, existence-authoring God judging him and damning him, makes no logical or moral sense. Because that implies that Hitler could have been something other than what he was, which he could not have been. Just like I can only be what I am.

Wouldn't you say it was just as likely Hitler could have chosen to not do those things? Yet again I tell you, if Hitler really believed in what he did, why did he try to hide what he did? Why did he kill himself instead of going out in a blaze of glory? (Like he told his soldiers to do) His actions spoke a lot louder than his words, and yet he decided to continue the things he knew were wrong. That is what God is going to judge him for. How do we know God (assuming He exists) didn't reach out to Hitler before he became a monster? Hitler could have rejected Him just like he rejected what he knew in his heart was actually right. The same for OJ, the same for all people who choose to go against their knowledge.


Hitler's actions stated he didn't believe his beliefs. One thing I have always found interesting is that according to Hitler's stated beliefs, the ultimate lifeform wasn't just a German person themselves, but a blonde hair/blue eyed Aryan. Just on these grounds alone, Hitler should have disqualified himself from his own belief system. Yet he became the leader of the movement. He didn't believe his beliefs. So we can't say he was a slave to his circumstances etc., (the Fuhrer should have been a blonde haired blue eyed dude) when he freely chose to overlook all that and did what he did. His actual actions (choices) condemn him.
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Old 01-15-2024, 08:15 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,797 posts, read 24,297,543 times
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Originally Posted by Horn of ‘83 View Post
Are you suggesting Christians should not vote their conscience? What about those of different beliefs?
I hear a lot of people with mindsets that seem very similar to yours who loathe (as an example) BLM as an organization. Are those people saying that Black Americans shouldn't vote their conscience?

And we could go down a long list of other organizations that folks like you probably don't like who don't like the idea of those groups organizing lobbying campaigns and political groups that support a particular life style of belief system. We certainly have seen that backlash against gay organizations. And Muslim organizations. And many others.

It's very much like the 'christian pray around the flag pole' group in my school who felt it was their right to join each other each morning before school and pray around the flag pole, but were incensed that some of our Muslim students wanted a place they could pray to Allah during their lunch period.
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Old 01-15-2024, 09:07 AM
 
Location: Free State of Texas
20,440 posts, read 12,783,448 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I hear a lot of people with mindsets that seem very similar to yours who loathe (as an example) BLM as an organization. Are those people saying that Black Americans shouldn't vote their conscience?

And we could go down a long list of other organizations that folks like you probably don't like who don't like the idea of those groups organizing lobbying campaigns and political groups that support a particular life style of belief system. We certainly have seen that backlash against gay organizations. And Muslim organizations. And many others.

It's very much like the 'christian pray around the flag pole' group in my school who felt it was their right to join each other each morning before school and pray around the flag pole, but were incensed that some of our Muslim students wanted a place they could pray to Allah during their lunch period.
So, are you suggesting Christians should not vote their conscience? What about those of different beliefs?
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Old 01-15-2024, 09:32 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,797 posts, read 24,297,543 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Horn of ‘83 View Post
So, are you suggesting Christians should not vote their conscience? What about those of different beliefs?
Is there an emoji for when something goes right over another poster's head?
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Old 01-15-2024, 09:39 AM
 
Location: Free State of Texas
20,440 posts, read 12,783,448 times
Reputation: 2497
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Is there an emoji for when something goes right over another poster's head?
Yeah, it’s in the same place as the emoji for those who dodge a straightforward question.
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Old 01-15-2024, 09:57 AM
 
Location: West Virginia
16,671 posts, read 15,668,595 times
Reputation: 10922
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post
Wouldn't you say it was just as likely Hitler could have chosen to not do those things? Yet again I tell you, if Hitler really believed in what he did, why did he try to hide what he did? Why did he kill himself instead of going out in a blaze of glory? (Like he told his soldiers to do) His actions spoke a lot louder than his words, and yet he decided to continue the things he knew were wrong. That is what God is going to judge him for. How do we know God (assuming He exists) didn't reach out to Hitler before he became a monster? Hitler could have rejected Him just like he rejected what he knew in his heart was actually right. The same for OJ, the same for all people who choose to go against their knowledge.


Hitler's actions stated he didn't believe his beliefs. One thing I have always found interesting is that according to Hitler's stated beliefs, the ultimate lifeform wasn't just a German person themselves, but a blonde hair/blue eyed Aryan. Just on these grounds alone, Hitler should have disqualified himself from his own belief system. Yet he became the leader of the movement. He didn't believe his beliefs. So we can't say he was a slave to his circumstances etc., (the Fuhrer should have been a blonde haired blue eyed dude) when he freely chose to overlook all that and did what he did. His actual actions (choices) condemn him.
Other than your opinion, what is the basis for your claims about Hitler? You've posed a bunch of hypothetical (perhaps rhetorical) questions, determined for yourself that God is going to judge him, postulating some "conversation" between Hitler and God, implied that you can read Hitler's mind about what he believed, and changed his eye color (Hitler had blue eyes).

Have you also determined that you know what Hitler's religion views were? Historians still have mixed views about what Hitler believed.
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