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Old 01-15-2024, 10:04 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,807 posts, read 24,310,427 times
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Originally Posted by Horn of ‘83 View Post
Yeah, it’s in the same place as the emoji for those who dodge a straightforward question.
You got my answer. You just don't like it.
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Old 01-15-2024, 10:21 AM
 
63,808 posts, read 40,077,272 times
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You are extremely verbose and very committed to your irresponsibility (meaning you reject all responsibility for who and what you are or do despite it being the outgrowth of YOUR decisions in life). You essentially reject your existence as an illusion. You do not exist according to your reasoning so there is no YOU to make decisions about anything. Decisions do not exist because there is no one to make them.

Absurd! You exist but you are BECOMING what you claim you already are! That is what growth and maturity is all about. You are NOT "who you ARE." You are who you are BECOMING as you react to this life and its vicissitudes by your decisions. Who you are is a SPIRIT existing at a high-energy level while growing, developing, and maturing in a low-energy level material venue and body (Spiritual womb).

That is why you misunderstand the unconscious. It is not simple or easy to wrap your mind around, so it is not your fault. Your unconscious is the REAL you doing all the experiencing and reacting to the REAL world. It all happens at the high-energy and frequency level of quanta (think "light speed") well beyond our low frequency and low energy level of material existence. Our conscious awareness as we experience it is a "delayed playback" of what our REAL self has already experienced but is "played" at the low-energy level and frequency of material existence. (This is the source of the confusion in the double-slit experiments, I believe.)

Our cognitive awareness of Reality is kind of a permanent version of the victims in the movie "The Sting" always behind and unaware that what they are experiencing has already occurred. I suspect the occasional precognitive experiences and other odd psychic anecdotes are the result of some "leakage" from our REAL Self. The higher level of existence is the REAL level of existence which is why death at this level of existence is not an actual "death." It is a "birth" severing the "umbilical cord" (brain) to the "material womb." (Think unplugging from the Matrix).
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
I also lean towards hard determinism these days and there are different flavors of it that reconcile it with personal responsibility. That the self is an illusion or that free will in the sense people usually mean it is lacking does not have to equate to "anything goes". In practice, it most certainly does not.

What I like about hard determinism is that it allows one to get away from salvation projects because at the species level, humanity isn't "savable". I believe that humanism suffers from this delusion also that we can perfect or transform humanity as a species. In the same way that [insert any random animal here, let's pick "dolphins"] dolphins will still be dolphins 10,000 years from now (apart from perhaps some little smidgen of evolutionary change that wouldn't even likely be detectable), so humans will still be humans. To say otherwise is a form of manifest destiny / human exceptionalism. We are unique in certain ways, but no more so than dolphins are unique in certain ways from other creatures, else we would not have a separate classification for them.

All this is very deflating to human hubris / pride but also very true.

But that humans are limited to their humanity as a species, does not mean that individual humans can't transcend aspects of that, to make themselves the best and sometimes extraordinary exemplars of the species. And that is the motivation behind personal responsibility. It produces civil society ultimately, which raises the quality of life for everyone. Sadly, human society is constantly disintegrating and has to be periodically rebuilt.
I always appreciate your thoughtful and cogent posts, mordant. But on this issue, you need to understand that we can NOT be an illusion while also being an aware "entity" that sees it as an illusion! Illusions cannot see themselves. YOU are that aware entity and exist as a "composite resonant entity" at the quanta level (Spirit/Consciousness). This is not easily understood with the current physics mindset that is dominated by materiality. Consciousness is NOT "material", it is produced at the level of quanta (synaptic firings) by a material brain. The "product" is NOT the brain that produces it any more than a fire is the combustibles that produce it..

Last edited by MysticPhD; 01-15-2024 at 10:29 AM..
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Old 01-15-2024, 12:22 PM
 
2,417 posts, read 1,447,520 times
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Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
Other than your opinion, what is the basis for your claims about Hitler? You've posed a bunch of hypothetical (perhaps rhetorical) questions, determined for yourself that God is going to judge him, postulating some "conversation" between Hitler and God, implied that you can read Hitler's mind about what he believed, and changed his eye color (Hitler had blue eyes).

Have you also determined that you know what Hitler's religion views were? Historians still have mixed views about what Hitler believed.

Ah, you're right. Hitler did indeed have blue eyes. Though I believe it stands his actual actions showed he knew he was wrong. To continue to do wrong shows it was his free will to make the choice. With that said, if Yahweh is real, He will judge Hitler based on what he knew.


According to what is said of Adam and Eve, when they were created, they were naked and were not ashamed. After disobeying God, they became aware they were naked. When God asked Adam why he hid from His presence, Adam told Him he was afraid because he was naked. God then asked Adam who told him he was naked? So God then proceeded to announce judgments over Adam based on the knowledge he obtained through disobedience. Before hand Adam and Eve were innocent, even though they were naked.


Technically speaking if Hitler did everything he did and didn't have the knowledge that it was wrong, perhaps then God couldn't judge him. Yet his actions said otherwise, and thus he can be judged.
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Old 01-15-2024, 03:17 PM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
9,829 posts, read 7,261,099 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post
Wouldn't you say it was just as likely Hitler could have chosen to not do those things?
No, I really wouldn't. Again, for all the reasoning that I have explained in this thread, I don't think there was any other possibility of any events of all of the past of the universe up until this moment, and that's whether the universe is deterministic or not. Even if there were also quantum true randomness dice rolls, those dice rolls landed like they landed, and things happened as they happened. For Hitler to have done anything differently, different dice rolls would have had to have happened.

The universe murdered 6 million Jews via the Third Reich, and the universe painted all of the great works of the Renaissance. And the universe delivered my mail.

Quote:
Yet again I tell you, if Hitler really believed in what he did, why did he try to hide what he did? Why did he kill himself instead of going out in a blaze of glory? (Like he told his soldiers to do) His actions spoke a lot louder than his words, and yet he decided to continue the things he knew were wrong. That is what God is going to judge him for. How do we know God (assuming He exists) didn't reach out to Hitler before he became a monster? Hitler could have rejected Him just like he rejected what he knew in his heart was actually right. The same for OJ, the same for all people who choose to go against their knowledge.
I agree with you that if your all-knowing God exists, then only your God knows why Hitler did everything he did, or thought or felt everything that he did. He would know even more than Hitler would know. And he would understand that if we actually break everything down, Hitler was not actually capable of being or doing anything other than what he was and did with his life.

That's why it makes no sense for that God to judge any of it, or to judge anything. As you also admitted, we don't choose who we are, and who we are is why we think and feel and act the way that we do.

Hitler did not choose his biology, or any of the factors and influences and circumstances that led to all of his choices and actions and everything that he was and did and was a part of. It may be hard for us limited and emotional humans to fully understand this, but logically I believe it's true. Hitler was not capable of being anything other than what he was.

Quote:
His actual actions (choices) condemn him.
Wait. You're a Christian, right? Don't Christians believe that all Christians (as there is at least some evidence that Hitler was one), are forgiven upon death for all sins, no matter how bad, and go to eternal paradise; and non-Christians (such as the 6 million Jews Hitler murdered) go to hell?

I don't know if that's your version of religious nonsense or not, but I know there are at least some Christians out there who have such an utter asinine belief. That, Hitler is in Heaven if he accepted Jesus, and 6 million Jews that he had gassed to death, are all in Hell if they didn't.

Of course, in my view, since all the gods and religions are all pretty obviously imaginary, Hitler, and all of the Jews murdered in the Holocaust, are all in the same nothingness/non-existence that we are all going to be in after we die. There's no pain or suffering, or anything else to feel or experience.

And if by chance there is the all-knowing, all-powerful, all-benevolent God that you say exists, and if there is an eternal paradise, then Hitler is there along with every other once living creature that's ever been. That's the only thing that would make sense, if a truly God-like God with those properties exists. God would know all, including everything that we will ever do and exactly why we will do it. 'Judgement' would make no sense.
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Old 01-15-2024, 04:19 PM
 
63,808 posts, read 40,077,272 times
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Originally Posted by primaltech View Post
No, I really wouldn't. Again, for all the reasoning that I have explained in this thread, I don't think there was any other possibility of any events of all of the past of the universe up until this moment, and that's whether the universe is deterministic or not. Even if there were also quantum true randomness dice rolls, those dice rolls landed like they landed, and things happened as they happened. For Hitler to have done anything differently, different dice rolls would have had to have happened.

The universe murdered 6 million Jews via the Third Reich, and the universe painted all of the great works of the Renaissance. And the universe delivered my mail.



I agree with you that if your all-knowing God exists, then only your God knows why Hitler did everything he did, or thought or felt everything that he did. He would know even more than Hitler would know. And he would understand that if we actually break everything down, Hitler was not actually capable of being or doing anything other than what he was and did with his life.

That's why it makes no sense for that God to judge any of it, or to judge anything. As you also admitted, we don't choose who we are, and who we are is why we think and feel and act the way that we do.

Hitler did not choose his biology, or any of the factors and influences and circumstances that led to all of his choices and actions and everything that he was and did and was a part of. It may be hard for us limited and emotional humans to fully understand this, but logically I believe it's true. Hitler was not capable of being anything other than what he was.



Wait. You're a Christian, right? Don't Christians believe that all Christians (as there is at least some evidence that Hitler was one), are forgiven upon death for all sins, no matter how bad, and go to eternal paradise; and non-Christians (such as the 6 million Jews Hitler murdered) go to hell?

I don't know if that's your version of religious nonsense or not, but I know there are at least some Christians out there who have such an utter asinine belief. That, Hitler is in Heaven if he accepted Jesus, and 6 million Jews that he had gassed to death, are all in Hell if they didn't.

Of course, in my view, since all the gods and religions are all pretty obviously imaginary, Hitler, and all of the Jews murdered in the Holocaust, are all in the same nothingness/non-existence that we are all going to be in after we die. There's no pain or suffering, or anything else to feel or experience.

And if by chance there is the all-knowing, all-powerful, all-benevolent God that you say exists, and if there is an eternal paradise, then Hitler is there along with every other once living creature that's ever been. That's the only thing that would make sense, if a truly God-like God with those properties exists. God would know all, including everything that we will ever do and exactly why we will do it. 'Judgement' would make no sense.
You have truly "cemented" your denial of any responsibility for what you do or do not do in your life with your imaginings about the workings of the universe! You take irresponsibility to unseen heights, IMO. I am curious why you think we even have this capacity to see and make decisions about anything since the universe is doing it all anyway?
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Old 01-15-2024, 04:53 PM
 
Location: West Virginia
16,673 posts, read 15,668,595 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post
Ah, you're right. Hitler did indeed have blue eyes. Though I believe it stands his actual actions showed he knew he was wrong. To continue to do wrong shows it was his free will to make the choice. With that said, if Yahweh is real, He will judge Hitler based on what he knew.


According to what is said of Adam and Eve, when they were created, they were naked and were not ashamed. After disobeying God, they became aware they were naked. When God asked Adam why he hid from His presence, Adam told Him he was afraid because he was naked. God then asked Adam who told him he was naked? So God then proceeded to announce judgments over Adam based on the knowledge he obtained through disobedience. Before hand Adam and Eve were innocent, even though they were naked.


Technically speaking if Hitler did everything he did and didn't have the knowledge that it was wrong, perhaps then God couldn't judge him. Yet his actions said otherwise, and thus he can be judged.
Do you ever answer the questions that are asked of you?
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Old 01-15-2024, 08:06 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,807 posts, read 24,310,427 times
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Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
Do you ever answer the questions that are asked of you?
I asked him that a few days ago and he did a smiley.
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Old 01-15-2024, 09:17 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
19,997 posts, read 13,475,998 times
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I always appreciate your thoughtful and cogent posts, mordant. But on this issue, you need to understand that we can NOT be an illusion while also being an aware "entity" that sees it as an illusion! Illusions cannot see themselves. YOU are that aware entity and exist as a "composite resonant entity" at the quanta level (Spirit/Consciousness). This is not easily understood with the current physics mindset that is dominated by materiality. Consciousness is NOT "material", it is produced at the level of quanta (synaptic firings) by a material brain. The "product" is NOT the brain that produces it any more than a fire is the combustibles that produce it..
Personally I don't make much of the "self is an illusion" thing because it kind of is and kind of isn't. I have memories (increasingly fuzzy the farther back you go) and my mind ties them together into a superficially coherent narrative but I'm also not the person I was 10, 20 or certainly 50 years ago, either. My body doesn't even consist of the same cells at all, yet as a convenience it makes sense to consider this the same meat machine that has conveyed my brain from place to place since infancy.

So I prefer to see myself as an always-changing entity with imperfect cognition and leave it go at that. To me the main point of determinism is that human nature at the species level is going to change so slowly that watching paint dry would be entertainment -- and human nature at the personal level can only stretch its set points so much. It's still worth the effort though.
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Old 01-15-2024, 11:21 PM
 
Location: Germany
16,774 posts, read 4,979,959 times
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I always appreciate your thoughtful and cogent posts, mordant. But on this issue, you need to understand that we can NOT be an illusion while also being an aware "entity" that sees it as an illusion! Illusions cannot see themselves.
Of course we can see we are an illusion. Colors and sounds are illusions, yet we are aware of them AND know they are illusions, that they are how our brains perceive vibrations of different frequencies.

Considering the title of the thread, you want it both ways, admitting the world we perceive is not actually the world as it really is, and then contradicting yourself by claiming we are not an illusion. If you insist on lecturing us, at least be consistent.
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Old 01-16-2024, 06:39 AM
 
983 posts, read 528,228 times
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Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post
Many would say if God exists, He is unjust for allowing evil to take place in this world. Yet when God judges evil, the same may say God's judgment is unjust. Is this not having it both ways?
People say a lot of things. I try not to pay any attention to the noise and go w/ my own experiences.
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