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Old 01-16-2024, 09:14 AM
 
63,840 posts, read 40,128,566 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
Of course we can see we are an illusion. Colors and sounds are illusions, yet we are aware of them AND know they are illusions, that they are how our brains perceive vibrations of different frequencies.

Considering the title of the thread, you want it both ways, admitting the world we perceive is not actually the world as it really is, and then contradicting yourself by claiming we are not an illusion. If you insist on lecturing us, at least be consistent.
How can YOU, the perceiver of the illusion BE the illusion you are perceiving??? You have not thought very deeply about these issues, Harry.
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Old 01-16-2024, 10:54 AM
 
29,552 posts, read 9,737,716 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
Of course we can see we are an illusion. Colors and sounds are illusions, yet we are aware of them AND know they are illusions, that they are how our brains perceive vibrations of different frequencies.

Considering the title of the thread, you want it both ways, admitting the world we perceive is not actually the world as it really is, and then contradicting yourself by claiming we are not an illusion. If you insist on lecturing us, at least be consistent.
"I object, your honor! This trial is a travesty. It's a travesty of a mockery of a sham of a mockery of a travesty of two mockeries of a sham." - Fielding Mellish
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Old 01-16-2024, 11:14 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
How can YOU, the perceiver of the illusion BE the illusion you are perceiving??? You have not thought very deeply about these issues, Harry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
"I object, your honor! This trial is a travesty. It's a travesty of a mockery of a sham of a mockery of a travesty of two mockeries of a sham." - Fielding Mellish
Care to provide YOUR understanding of the bold to resolve any "mockeries" going on here, LearnMe????
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Old 01-16-2024, 11:28 AM
 
29,552 posts, read 9,737,716 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Care to provide YOUR understanding of the bold to resolve any "mockeries" going on here, LearnMe????
As just noted in another thread and reply to another comment of yours, I've got to be running along now, but if you see my last comment posted before this one, you will see where, how and why I provide what you request here.

Cheers until we meet again!
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Old 01-16-2024, 02:51 PM
 
2,435 posts, read 1,452,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech View Post
No, I really wouldn't. Again, for all the reasoning that I have explained in this thread, I don't think there was any other possibility of any events of all of the past of the universe up until this moment, and that's whether the universe is deterministic or not. Even if there were also quantum true randomness dice rolls, those dice rolls landed like they landed, and things happened as they happened. For Hitler to have done anything differently, different dice rolls would have had to have happened.

The universe murdered 6 million Jews via the Third Reich, and the universe painted all of the great works of the Renaissance. And the universe delivered my mail.



I agree with you that if your all-knowing God exists, then only your God knows why Hitler did everything he did, or thought or felt everything that he did. He would know even more than Hitler would know. And he would understand that if we actually break everything down, Hitler was not actually capable of being or doing anything other than what he was and did with his life.

That's why it makes no sense for that God to judge any of it, or to judge anything. As you also admitted, we don't choose who we are, and who we are is why we think and feel and act the way that we do.

Hitler did not choose his biology, or any of the factors and influences and circumstances that led to all of his choices and actions and everything that he was and did and was a part of. It may be hard for us limited and emotional humans to fully understand this, but logically I believe it's true. Hitler was not capable of being anything other than what he was.
I hear ya on this. Ultimately you might say we are the universe in that we are made up of universe stuff. That even though we have awareness, we are no more special than non-living things in this universe and all their processes. The reactions going on in the sun and everything that makes it go, are similar to what makes us go. Different in type, but same in essence.


I disagree. I believe we are special, but as they say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.


Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech View Post
Wait. You're a Christian, right? Don't Christians believe that all Christians (as there is at least some evidence that Hitler was one), are forgiven upon death for all sins, no matter how bad, and go to eternal paradise; and non-Christians (such as the 6 million Jews Hitler murdered) go to hell?

I don't know if that's your version of religious nonsense or not, but I know there are at least some Christians out there who have such an utter asinine belief. That, Hitler is in Heaven if he accepted Jesus, and 6 million Jews that he had gassed to death, are all in Hell if they didn't.

Of course, in my view, since all the gods and religions are all pretty obviously imaginary, Hitler, and all of the Jews murdered in the Holocaust, are all in the same nothingness/non-existence that we are all going to be in after we die. There's no pain or suffering, or anything else to feel or experience.

And if by chance there is the all-knowing, all-powerful, all-benevolent God that you say exists, and if there is an eternal paradise, then Hitler is there along with every other once living creature that's ever been. That's the only thing that would make sense, if a truly God-like God with those properties exists. God would know all, including everything that we will ever do and exactly why we will do it. 'Judgement' would make no sense.

According to Scripture, Jesus said not everyone who calls Him Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who do the will of the Father. Hitler certainly didn't do the Father's will. I even heard the Nazis made up their own version of Christianity. (I don't know if that is true). God is going to judge based on what we know. If Hitler had knowledge of Jesus and still went on to do what he did, his punishment will be worse than what it would have been if he didn't. Ultimately I can't say what one knew and how God is going to judge for most, but when we look at Hitler's fruit, its obvious he was unrepentant his entire adult life.

Last edited by Heavenese; 01-16-2024 at 03:11 PM..
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Old 01-16-2024, 02:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
Do you ever answer the questions that are asked of you?

Yeah my answer may have been carry over from another discussion. Yet ultimately Hitler didn't produce the fruit of someone who genuinely put their trust on Jesus. So basically what I'm saying is, if God exists, Hitler will be judged based on his knowledge and actions, not on God's grace.

I say if God exists for the sake of the conversation.
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Old 01-21-2024, 08:55 AM
 
Location: Oklahoma (unfortunately)
426 posts, read 160,575 times
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The way I think of this, and the way many other skeptics/nonbelievers think of this is a bit different from how you frame it.

I, and many others, think that an intervening God (if they existed) should stop evil before it occurs. It's not about punishment for bad deeds, it's about stopping the bad deeds from ever happening. Punishment does not take away the pain that the evil deeds caused. Punishment is just a product of human emotion wanting us to see the bad people punished for what they did. It does very little if any good in reality.

Besides, say that someone was satisfied with the idea of bad deeds getting punishment by a deity. Lets take that stance. I'm assuming that when you mention "punishment" you're thinking of the Christian idea of Hell. Do correct me if I'm wrong. Hell is a punishment that far outweighs the crime. Hell is eternal punishment. Hell is unfathomable cruelty. I can think of the worst human beings I can ever think of and still not think that even they could possibly deserve eternal torture.

Hell is just another evil in my eyes. This one not only not stopped by the hypothetical God, but endorsed by him. In fact, Hell is an unfathomable evil that far exceeds anything that evil people could do.
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Old 01-21-2024, 10:19 AM
 
29,552 posts, read 9,737,716 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodwindsRock View Post
The way I think of this, and the way many other skeptics/nonbelievers think of this is a bit different from how you frame it.

I, and many others, think that an intervening God (if they existed) should stop evil before it occurs. It's not about punishment for bad deeds, it's about stopping the bad deeds from ever happening. Punishment does not take away the pain that the evil deeds caused. Punishment is just a product of human emotion wanting us to see the bad people punished for what they did. It does very little if any good in reality.

Besides, say that someone was satisfied with the idea of bad deeds getting punishment by a deity. Lets take that stance. I'm assuming that when you mention "punishment" you're thinking of the Christian idea of Hell. Do correct me if I'm wrong. Hell is a punishment that far outweighs the crime. Hell is eternal punishment. Hell is unfathomable cruelty. I can think of the worst human beings I can ever think of and still not think that even they could possibly deserve eternal torture.

Hell is just another evil in my eyes. This one not only not stopped by the hypothetical God, but endorsed by him. In fact, Hell is an unfathomable evil that far exceeds anything that evil people could do.
The way I think of this...

Well I don't really thing of this other than when I visit this forum where so many people love to speculate about such things. The concept of an intervening God prime among them. First question is why a god would intervene in the first place? What is the reason or intent? People seem to believe in a God who cares about us. Let's assume that is the case. Why then so apparently indifferent when it comes to so many of us who are forced to endure so much pain and suffering?

Best answer I can think up, and/or the best way I know to reconcile such apparent contradictions is to simply recognize there is no such thing as a god there to speculate about. I know of no good reason to think otherwise anyway, and all the pain and suffering is caused for reasons that we simply don't want to accept. Much of which is simply the way things are and out of our control. Recognizing the simple straight facts of these matters can be a rather liberating way to muddle through it all to the best of our abilities.
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Old 01-21-2024, 10:59 AM
 
63,840 posts, read 40,128,566 times
Reputation: 7881
Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodwindsRock View Post
The way I think of this, and the way many other skeptics/nonbelievers think of this is a bit different from how you frame it.

I, and many others, think that an intervening God (if they existed) should stop evil before it occurs. It's not about punishment for bad deeds, it's about stopping the bad deeds from ever happening. Punishment does not take away the pain that the evil deeds caused. Punishment is just a product of human emotion wanting us to see the bad people punished for what they did. It does very little if any good in reality.

Besides, say that someone was satisfied with the idea of bad deeds getting punishment by a deity. Lets take that stance. I'm assuming that when you mention "punishment" you're thinking of the Christian idea of Hell. Do correct me if I'm wrong. Hell is a punishment that far outweighs the crime. Hell is eternal punishment. Hell is unfathomable cruelty. I can think of the worst human beings I can ever think of and still not think that even they could possibly deserve eternal torture.

Hell is just another evil in my eyes. This one not only not stopped by the hypothetical God, but endorsed by him. In fact, Hell is an unfathomable evil that far exceeds anything that evil people could do.
Punishment has nothing to do with "justice" and everything to do with our human sense of vengeance. The supposed deterrent aspect is illusory. Our human concepts are flawed and should never be applied to the Divine (whether you think the Divine exists or not). Hell is the most egregious of human concepts. I have extreme difficulty understanding its appeal and endurance. It does not speak well of us as a species, IMO.
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Old 01-21-2024, 11:39 AM
 
63,840 posts, read 40,128,566 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
The way I think of this...

Well I don't really thing of this other than when I visit this forum where so many people love to speculate about such things. The concept of an intervening God prime among them. First question is why a god would intervene in the first place? What is the reason or intent? People seem to believe in a God who cares about us. Let's assume that is the case. Why then so apparently indifferent when it comes to so many of us who are forced to endure so much pain and suffering?

Best answer I can think up, and/or the best way I know to reconcile such apparent contradictions is to simply recognize there is no such thing as a god there to speculate about. I know of no good reason to think otherwise anyway, and all the pain and suffering is caused for reasons that we simply don't want to accept. Much of which is simply the way things are and out of our control. Recognizing the simple straight facts of these matters can be a rather liberating way to muddle through it all to the best of our abilities.
The bold is a completely reasonable conclusion given the expectations for an intervening Omni-max God. However, I think of my status as a Father who is NOT omnipotent in this world but I love despite that. I was powerless about how my children developed in their mother's womb. I wonder why it is that God would not be given a similar understanding. Rather than place such extravagant expectations on God, why not believe God exists, but as a Spirit has only indirect influence through us in this physical realm (spiritual womb)? Is it any easier to accept that we HAVE to endure the vagaries of this physical venue because God does NOT exist?
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