Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Celebrating Memorial Day!
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-21-2024, 12:09 PM
 
29,580 posts, read 9,810,975 times
Reputation: 3491

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The bold is a completely reasonable conclusion given the expectations for an intervening Omni-max God. However, I think of my status as a Father who is NOT omnipotent in this world but I love despite that. I was powerless about how my children developed in their mother's womb. I wonder why it is that God would not be given a similar understanding. Rather than place such extravagant expectations on God, why not believe God exists, but as a Spirit has only indirect influence through us in this physical realm (spiritual womb)? Is it any easier to accept that we HAVE to endure the vagaries of this physical venue because God does NOT exist?
Do you really think this is a good analogy or comparison? As a father, we tend to care about what happens to our children, and we do what we can to help them. Or to keep them from harm, or whatever we can to intervene in their life in order to do what we can for them. In fact as a father, a good father anyway, we feel this is our responsibility.

For you or anyone else who might have notions of a god as some sort of father figure, or spawner of our existence, it's easy to make those sorts of connections or have those sorts of expectations about God intervening in our lives, but of course then there is the reality we are forced to face one way or another. When, where and how it seems there is such indifference on the part of this god when it comes to what happens to us. To the point of significant pain and suffering. Needless and/or inexplicable at that.

Again leaving me more comfortable from a rationale standpoint simply to realize there is no such god there to speculate about. Paternal, caring, loving or indifferent. There's just no there there given all apparent appearances...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-21-2024, 03:59 PM
 
2,539 posts, read 1,484,558 times
Reputation: 485
Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodwindsRock View Post
The way I think of this, and the way many other skeptics/nonbelievers think of this is a bit different from how you frame it.

I, and many others, think that an intervening God (if they existed) should stop evil before it occurs. It's not about punishment for bad deeds, it's about stopping the bad deeds from ever happening. Punishment does not take away the pain that the evil deeds caused. Punishment is just a product of human emotion wanting us to see the bad people punished for what they did. It does very little if any good in reality.

Besides, say that someone was satisfied with the idea of bad deeds getting punishment by a deity. Lets take that stance. I'm assuming that when you mention "punishment" you're thinking of the Christian idea of Hell. Do correct me if I'm wrong. Hell is a punishment that far outweighs the crime. Hell is eternal punishment. Hell is unfathomable cruelty. I can think of the worst human beings I can ever think of and still not think that even they could possibly deserve eternal torture.

Hell is just another evil in my eyes. This one not only not stopped by the hypothetical God, but endorsed by him. In fact, Hell is an unfathomable evil that far exceeds anything that evil people could do.

I don't know if I said it here, but if God did intervene before any evil could take place, its safe to say none of us would exist. I myself am the product of hundreds of years of American slavery and discrimination. Somewhere down the line, we all have ancestors who were raped and maltreated. My understanding is, in the creation of man, God took a risk. Even after the fall of man and God's plan for our restoration, we still have the free will choice He gave us. So in His patience to receive as many as are willing to be with Him, evil is allowed to happen. Once the full number of those who receive God's kingdom is reached, that is when God will put an ultimate end to evil.


As for the severity of the judgement of evil, it comes down to perspective. When we harm each other, we aren't just committing crime against each other. It is crime against God as well, who is eternal. Of course I won't pretend to know the ins and outs of God's judgments. Yet as for me, I trust they are righteous judgments.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-21-2024, 04:05 PM
 
64,035 posts, read 40,340,014 times
Reputation: 7900
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Do you really think this is a good analogy or comparison? As a father, we tend to care about what happens to our children, and we do what we can to help them. Or to keep them from harm, or whatever we can to intervene in their life in order to do what we can for them. In fact as a father, a good father anyway, we feel this is our responsibility.

For you or anyone else who might have notions of a god as some sort of father figure, or spawner of our existence, it's easy to make those sorts of connections or have those sorts of expectations about God intervening in our lives, but of course then there is the reality we are forced to face one way or another. When, where and how it seems there is such indifference on the part of this god when it comes to what happens to us. To the point of significant pain and suffering. Needless and/or inexplicable at that.

Again leaving me more comfortable from a rationale standpoint simply to realize there is no such god there to speculate about. Paternal, caring, loving or indifferent. There's just no there there given all apparent appearances...
I am afraid you missed the relevant point that a Father has NO POWER to intervene in the development process of his children while they are in the womb! I analogize this physical existence to a "spiritual womb" existence as separate from the spirit realm we will inhabit as the physical womb is from the physical realm we inhabit. Our mother's womb is where our physical bodies develop the attributes, traits, and capabilities that we need for this physical existence. This physical existence is where we develop our "Spiritual body" (spiritual attributes, traits, and capabilities) that we need for our spiritual existence, IMO. I do believe what Jesus said to Nicodemus and what Paul said in 1st Corinthians 15:35-36 are true.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-21-2024, 04:19 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,158 posts, read 24,630,842 times
Reputation: 33176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post
I don't know if I said it here, but if God did intervene before any evil could take place, its safe to say none of us would exist. I myself am the product of hundreds of years of American slavery and discrimination. Somewhere down the line, we all have ancestors who were raped and maltreated. My understanding is, in the creation of man, God took a risk. Even after the fall of man and God's plan for our restoration, we still have the free will choice He gave us. So in His patience to receive as many as are willing to be with Him, evil is allowed to happen. Once the full number of those who receive God's kingdom is reached, that is when God will put an ultimate end to evil.


As for the severity of the judgement of evil, it comes down to perspective. When we harm each other, we aren't just committing crime against each other. It is crime against God as well, who is eternal. Of course I won't pretend to know the ins and outs of God's judgments. Yet as for me, I trust they are righteous judgments.
Yes, we all know how you christians love and will cling to suffering.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-21-2024, 05:00 PM
 
Location: california
7,337 posts, read 6,961,580 times
Reputation: 9289
Our existence is full of choices.
"Choice" is the difference between a robot and a human.
I once knew a man that resented the fact that God demands a choice, a sign of rebellion in it's self.
All living things have a choice. We see this in animal insect and life and plant life as well. Some things are more obvious than others.
God made Adam for fellowship. What fellowship is there with a machine?
The Satanic are going out of their way to dumb down mankind, we see it more and more every day. What do you think this new world order is all about? If you don't know you should look into it, and those behind it. It is no secret.
This life is not the end product. The endless list of NDEs should tell you something.
God is completely aware of all things going on, He knows your thoughts and the intents of your heart.
The fact people do bad things is no surprise, however God provides rescue from that nature to a new nature, one aware of an eternal existence and accountability.
He is also quite aware of those that are determined to resist His efforts to reveal Himself. Even now.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-22-2024, 08:08 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
20,177 posts, read 13,607,735 times
Reputation: 10056
Quote:
Originally Posted by arleigh View Post
Our existence is full of choices.
"Choice" is the difference between a robot and a human.
And yet you have no problem with people being "robots" in heaven where sin no longer exists.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arleigh View Post
The fact people do bad things is no surprise, however God provides rescue from that nature to a new nature, one aware of an eternal existence and accountability.
You have identified the crux of the human condition: we are full of conflicting impulses due to competing concerns.

And yes your belief systems claims to "rescue" humanity from the human condition, yet there is zero evidence that it actually does so, and so you have to displace the fulfillment of that value proposition / promise to a conveniently inaccessible afterlife.

Christians are equally represented in prison populations, divorce statistics, mental and physical health measures, and dozens of other things ... Christians run governments that go to war, promote income inequality, even deploy theological concepts to marginalize the disadvantaged. Christians run churches that repeatedly molest women and children, and then try to cover it up. Christian congregations can be, alternately, havens of refuge, or exclusionary cliques, depending on the individual involved and their group dynamic.

Sorry but your uneconomical assessment of the human condition, even if it were correct, does not actually help humans better themselves.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-22-2024, 10:01 AM
 
29,580 posts, read 9,810,975 times
Reputation: 3491
d
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I am afraid you missed the relevant point that a Father has NO POWER to intervene in the development process of his children while they are in the womb! I analogize this physical existence to a "spiritual womb" existence as separate from the spirit realm we will inhabit as the physical womb is from the physical realm we inhabit. Our mother's womb is where our physical bodies develop the attributes, traits, and capabilities that we need for this physical existence. This physical existence is where we develop our "Spiritual body" (spiritual attributes, traits, and capabilities) that we need for our spiritual existence, IMO. I do believe what Jesus said to Nicodemus and what Paul said in 1st Corinthians 15:35-36 are true.
Yes. Now I see how your "in the womb" clarification works better. Of course. My mistake upon first read to miss that, and apologies. There is always some way to rationalize this sort of thing to suit the sticking points like facts and reality. Though I am tempted to argue how even a father has power to intervene in the development process of his children while in the womb, that would be just as much a stretch that would serve no better in terms of establishing the actual facts and truths of these matters.

Mystic, I will be the first to admit that when it comes to speculations about the nature of God and related speculations, the effort to address them rationally is something like the effort to catch a small fish in a large pond with a flat stick. You certainly have no shortage of small fish. Still, I can't help but wonder if your point is as well made as you think if we consider that the "womb" in this case is the entire universe which most believers speculate was created by God. Is it unreasonable or irrational to assume that if any of us were father to the entire environment we are forced to exist within, we might do a better job of making it less perilous for "his children" to manage and even survive?

Don't bother. Even I can be like that small fish in a big pond faced with a flat stick like this one too. Obviously all God created that tests us humans to the extremes is for purposes of making us stronger! Or for purpose of insuring a successful development process! Or for purposes of allowing ourselves to prove ourselves worthy! I always like to say that what doesn't kill us, God is curious to find out (but you wouldn't appreciate that one as much I don't think).

Even in the case of that 9 year old child killed in Florida by a school bus moments after crawling under. That horror for all concerned is part of the development process God has in mind for us. Sure. Again don't bother. I get it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-22-2024, 03:09 PM
 
64,035 posts, read 40,340,014 times
Reputation: 7900
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
d

Yes. Now I see how your "in the womb" clarification works better. Of course. My mistake upon first read to miss that, and apologies. There is always some way to rationalize this sort of thing to suit the sticking points like facts and reality. Though I am tempted to argue how even a father has power to intervene in the development process of his children while in the womb, that would be just as much a stretch that would serve no better in terms of establishing the actual facts and truths of these matters.

Mystic, I will be the first to admit that when it comes to speculations about the nature of God and related speculations, the effort to address them rationally is something like the effort to catch a small fish in a large pond with a flat stick. You certainly have no shortage of small fish. Still, I can't help but wonder if your point is as well made as you think if we consider that the "womb" in this case is the entire universe which most believers speculate was created by God. Is it unreasonable or irrational to assume that if any of us were father to the entire environment we are forced to exist within, we might do a better job of making it less perilous for "his children" to manage and even survive?

Don't bother. Even I can be like that small fish in a big pond faced with a flat stick like this one too. Obviously all God created that tests us humans to the extremes is for purposes of making us stronger! Or for purpose of insuring a successful development process! Or for purposes of allowing ourselves to prove ourselves worthy! I always like to say that what doesn't kill us, God is curious to find out (but you wouldn't appreciate that one as much I don't think).

Even in the case of that 9 year old child killed in Florida by a school bus moments after crawling under. That horror for all concerned is part of the development process God has in mind for us. Sure. Again don't bother. I get it.
I suspect you still hold a residual expectation that what we are discussing (our spiritual womb existence) is somehow part of God's Will. It is not! A human Father's will does not affect the developmental "experiences" of his child in the womb. I admit analogies are imperfect means of communicating such disparate ideas as a reality of physical materiality and that of pure Spirit (Consciousness). Everything we experience is defined and characterized by our Spirit (as qualia) and our responses and reactions to the qualia define our spiritual character("body").It is our affinity for those spiritual aspects of our experiences (qualia) that define the kind of Spirit we are BECOMING.

The more our affinities run to the physical and sensual aspects of life, the less spiritual they are, IMO. This is why learning the distinction between Good and Evil is so central to our spiritual development. Preferring the Good over the sensual (no matter how pleasurable or painful) and disdaining the Evil (no matter how pleasurable or painful) is the major challenge of this life, again IMO. It is our Spirit that defines us and is what will determine our status when we are "born again" as Spirit into the Spirit realm. Or as my Synthesis sees it, our BEC "bubble" in the "quantum foam" bursts and we join God. The panorama of infinity should be awesome.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-23-2024, 09:31 AM
 
29,580 posts, read 9,810,975 times
Reputation: 3491
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I suspect you still hold a residual expectation that what we are discussing (our spiritual womb existence) is somehow part of God's Will. It is not! A human Father's will does not affect the developmental "experiences" of his child in the womb. I admit analogies are imperfect means of communicating such disparate ideas as a reality of physical materiality and that of pure Spirit (Consciousness). Everything we experience is defined and characterized by our Spirit (as qualia) and our responses and reactions to the qualia define our spiritual character("body").It is our affinity for those spiritual aspects of our experiences (qualia) that define the kind of Spirit we are BECOMING.

The more our affinities run to the physical and sensual aspects of life, the less spiritual they are, IMO. This is why learning the distinction between Good and Evil is so central to our spiritual development. Preferring the Good over the sensual (no matter how pleasurable or painful) and disdaining the Evil (no matter how pleasurable or painful) is the major challenge of this life, again IMO. It is our Spirit that defines us and is what will determine our status when we are "born again" as Spirit into the Spirit realm. Or as my Synthesis sees it, our BEC "bubble" in the "quantum foam" bursts and we join God. The panorama of infinity should be awesome.
You really must be kidding! Surely you know me well enough by now to know I hold NO "residual expectation" about any speculations related to a god. Other than to simply explain what I see religious people using for rationale when they speculate about the same sorts of things. Whether they align with your beliefs and rationale or not.

They are all pretty much the same to me when it comes to how they all speculate about the existence of a god one way or another and/or how they come to rationalize those speculations one way or another. Different though they may all be, they are all no more well justified from the standpoint of convincing or affirming validation.

If nothing else, I've only tried to point out the inability for anyone to intelligently argue one way or another about these sorts of speculations when there is no "litmus test" that can be applied.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-23-2024, 10:22 AM
 
64,035 posts, read 40,340,014 times
Reputation: 7900
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
You really must be kidding! Surely you know me well enough by now to know I hold NO "residual expectation" about any speculations related to a god. Other than to simply explain what I see religious people using for rationale when they speculate about the same sorts of things. Whether they align with your beliefs and rationale or not.

They are all pretty much the same to me when it comes to how they all speculate about the existence of a god one way or another and/or how they come to rationalize those speculations one way or another. Different though they may all be, they are all no more well justified from the standpoint of convincing or affirming validation.

If nothing else, I've only tried to point out the inability for anyone to intelligently argue one way or another about these sorts of speculations when there is no "litmus test" that can be applied.
I agree there is no simplistic or easily acquired "litmus test," but I spent decades acquiring the knowledge to intelligently explain how the reality of what I experienced is conceivable. That is not mere "speculation," your opinion notwithstanding.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:26 AM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top