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Old 01-12-2024, 08:51 PM
 
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Many would say if God exists, He is unjust for allowing evil to take place in this world. Yet when God judges evil, the same may say God's judgment is unjust. Is this not having it both ways?
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Old 01-12-2024, 09:34 PM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
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Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post
Many would say if God exists, He is unjust for allowing evil to take place in this world. Yet when God judges evil, the same may say God's judgment is unjust. Is this not having it both ways?
Huh?

You're the one who says that an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-benevolent being exists. Not me.

So, if such a being exists, as you come here to preach about, then yes, I am curious how you reconcile that belief with all of the constant suffering going on out there, in the real world. Like, as just one example, the estimated 15,000-40,000 homeless people that died on the sidewalks of the US in 2023. Or, all the children who get cancer, every year after year. Denied their lives. Is it because those children are 'evil', and didn't do their 'free will' right?

And yes, God murdering everyone for being merely human (and whatever other tales and nonsense you believe), would be unjust.

Because whether 'evil' exists or not, at the end of the day, humans don't have an actual, magical/supernatural 'free will' ability, which is what that whole nonsense Christian belief system is predicated on. We may not know all the reasons and causes of our actions, but an all-knowing God would.
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Old 01-12-2024, 10:36 PM
 
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Lol, this is a very hard question. When I first saw it I was thinking you were going to ask in the lines of serving two masters because of my faith, but now that I understand your question a little better I would say this:

In a perfect court of law a Judge is impartial and just. The decision she makes will be without prejudice so I would have faith in her honor's judgment. I would like to note that people judged a woman guilty of ill repute and was sentenced to death by stoning. When those wonderful bible following people asked Jesus opinion, he found her guilty of sin and allowed to be put to death by throwing rocks at her, but there was a stipulation in His ruling. Anyone without sin can cast the first stone. Everyone was guilty of committing some kind of sin in their life so they left her alive and unharmed. Jesus then asked the lady where were her accusers? She replied they all left in shame and there are none left. He said since no one is here to accuse and condemn her, He will not condemn her either and said to sin no more.

How could I get mad at that judgement? It came out of love, wisdom and forgiveness. If God judges a death sentence for me I will gladly accept it, because I would rather have a family member execute me than the devil.
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Old 01-13-2024, 07:47 AM
Status: "My worldview is based on the inerrant word of God." (set 23 days ago)
 
18,695 posts, read 6,803,712 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post
Many would say if God exists, He is unjust for allowing evil to take place in this world. Yet when God judges evil, the same may say God's judgment is unjust. Is this not having it both ways?
Yeah. Pretty much. People can't handle the fact that if God were to judge sin, they'd be included in the judgment. And we all do that.
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Old 01-13-2024, 09:08 AM
 
2,279 posts, read 1,387,601 times
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Originally Posted by primaltech View Post
Huh?

You're the one who says that an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-benevolent being exists. Not me.

So, if such a being exists, as you come here to preach about, then yes, I am curious how you reconcile that belief with all of the constant suffering going on out there, in the real world. Like, as just one example, the estimated 15,000-40,000 homeless people that died on the sidewalks of the US in 2023. Or, all the children who get cancer, every year after year. Denied their lives. Is it because those children are 'evil', and didn't do their 'free will' right?

And yes, God murdering everyone for being merely human (and whatever other tales and nonsense you believe), would be unjust.

Because whether 'evil' exists or not, at the end of the day, humans don't have an actual, magical/supernatural 'free will' ability, which is what that whole nonsense Christian belief system is predicated on. We may not know all the reasons and causes of our actions, but an all-knowing God would.

Why would this be seen as preaching? This is just a thought I'm throwing out there for discussion. To me, "preaching" would be trying to get someone to believe on Jesus. Now as for the quality of this thought for discussion, whether there be any value or insight, that's up for the reader to decide.


That said, if free will does exist, then our choices aren't set in stone. If they are not set in stone in the ultimate sense, then they can change. Thus even though God is all knowing, when it comes to what "will" happen (the choice we make), there is nothing to know. Its easier to understand this before man's creation, but it get trickier afterward. You see before Adam and Eve were created, they didn't exist. If they didn't exist, how can God know the choice "they would" make, when they didn't exist? They were nothing, and thus their "choices" were nothing as well. After Adam and Eve were created, now there is something to know. Of course at that point, even if God knew every single choice by man that "would" happen, now that man exist, everything has already been set in motion. God won't reverse man's creation, no matter how much He hates the choices we make. Yet like I said, our choices aren't set in stone. There is no "would" or "will". There is only possibility and God's own grace.


Now with this topic I wanted to take it to God's ultimate judgments of evil. The things happening on this earth are horrible and frightening. People suffer and die all the time. Yet if God exists, and my God is Yahweh, then this life is temporary. The next life is eternal. (According to my understanding of Scripture) Ultimately, God will judge all the evil that has gone on in this world, and will give life to those who have suffered through no fault of their own. So its not like people will get away with the harm they done. In the end, for one who receives eternal life, the pain they experienced on this planet won't be worth remembering.


So within the context of this thread, some might say God allowing all the pain and not doing anything about it is unjust. Yet when He ultimately does something about it, the same might say that is unjust. Putting aside all the "natural" disasters and diseases aside for a second, people have a problem with God allowing things like murder to go on. We have a problem with the pain people cause other people, that kind of evil, and seemingly not doing anything about it. Yet when God does ultimately judge people for their evil, some say it is overkill. I wonder how many have a problem with an unrepentant Hitler being cast into the Lake of Fire? All those who done evil right up until their last breath? Is God unjust for condemning them to an eternal punishment?


Quote:
Originally Posted by High.priestess.Sarah View Post
Lol, this is a very hard question. When I first saw it I was thinking you were going to ask in the lines of serving two masters because of my faith, but now that I understand your question a little better I would say this:

In a perfect court of law a Judge is impartial and just. The decision she makes will be without prejudice so I would have faith in her honor's judgment. I would like to note that people judged a woman guilty of ill repute and was sentenced to death by stoning. When those wonderful bible following people asked Jesus opinion, he found her guilty of sin and allowed to be put to death by throwing rocks at her, but there was a stipulation in His ruling. Anyone without sin can cast the first stone. Everyone was guilty of committing some kind of sin in their life so they left her alive and unharmed. Jesus then asked the lady where were her accusers? She replied they all left in shame and there are none left. He said since no one is here to accuse and condemn her, He will not condemn her either and said to sin no more.

How could I get mad at that judgement? It came out of love, wisdom and forgiveness. If God judges a death sentence for me I will gladly accept it, because I would rather have a family member execute me than the devil.

I hear ya.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
Yeah. Pretty much. People can't handle the fact that if God were to judge sin, they'd be included in the judgment. And we all do that.

Yeah and I believe this is interesting. According to my knowledge, what God allows and then judges, goes beyond man's understanding. Particularly when it comes to the final judgments. If one finds God's judgments unjust, they may find themselves defending the most willingly evil people who have ever lived on earth.
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Old 01-13-2024, 09:42 AM
 
Location: Albuquerque
865 posts, read 435,475 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post
Many would say if God exists, He is unjust for allowing evil to take place in this world. Yet when God judges evil, the same may say God's judgment is unjust. Is this not having it both ways?
Your question makes no sense to me. People who believe in a judgemental god pretend like the things they judge are their god's judgement. Sometimes it can get quite silly. And those people also refuse to take responsibility for their actions and thoughts so yes, that is trying to have it both ways.

As for god allowing evil, there are all kinds of excuses that lead me to believe no one really believes in god, they just use it as a scape goat or fear porn (the devil walks the streets at night so you need to stay home; anything that is not understood is the work of the devil, god's nemisis, or god's will).
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Old 01-13-2024, 10:15 AM
 
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Originally Posted by DesertRat56 View Post
Your question makes no sense to me. People who believe in a judgemental god pretend like the things they judge are their god's judgement. Sometimes it can get quite silly. And those people also refuse to take responsibility for their actions and thoughts so yes, that is trying to have it both ways.

As for god allowing evil, there are all kinds of excuses that lead me to believe no one really believes in god, they just use it as a scape goat or fear porn (the devil walks the streets at night so you need to stay home; anything that is not understood is the work of the devil, god's nemisis, or god's will).

This topic speaks to the question many have saying if God exists, why does He allow evil? (Seemingly why He does not do something about the evil going on in the world?) Yet when He judges evil, with the ultimate judgment being eternal, the same may have issues with His judgment. So these understandings on our part concerning God if He exists, it seems many have a problem with God not doing something, but also have a problem when He does something about the evil.

Last edited by Heavenese; 01-13-2024 at 10:26 AM..
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Old 01-13-2024, 10:25 AM
 
Location: a little corner of a very big universe
845 posts, read 700,181 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post
This topic speaks to the question many have saying if God exists, why does He allow evil? (Seemingly why doesn't He do something about the evil going on in the world?) Yet when He judges evil, with the ultimate judgment being eternal, the same may have issues with His judgment. So these understandings on our part concerning God if He exists, it seems many have a problem with God not doing something, but also have a problem when He does something about the evil.

One might think that preventing the evil from happening in the first place would be a much better use of omniscience and omnipotence than punishing the miscreant after other people/animals/the planet had suffered.
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Old 01-13-2024, 10:44 AM
 
2,279 posts, read 1,387,601 times
Reputation: 453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaic View Post
One might think that preventing the evil from happening in the first place would be a much better use of omniscience and omnipotence than punishing the miscreant after other people/animals/the planet had suffered.
If God knew men would choose evil, He would not have created man.
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Old 01-13-2024, 11:07 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,119 posts, read 23,785,288 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post
Why would this be seen as preaching? This is just a thought I'm throwing out there for discussion. To me, "preaching" would be trying to get someone to believe on Jesus. Now as for the quality of this thought for discussion, whether there be any value or insight, that's up for the reader to decide.


...
No, your whole purpose for being on this forum is to preach. You do it almost every day in very long posts where you simply state the way it is, and then pretend you want a discussion.
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