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Old 02-13-2024, 10:21 PM
 
18,255 posts, read 16,963,369 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I am enjoying your very sophisticated and educated modern minds grappling with these ancient recordings. What we can say about them is that they recorded some rather extraordinary events and a very extraordinary man. His existence and impact on the world should not be discounted, marginalized, or minimized simply because the recordings were written and embellished by very unsophisticated, not very educated or nuanced primitive minds of unverifiable provenance, IMO. They are what they are and they wrote the way they wrote back then for reasons only they know. To pretend that such extraordinary impact and endurance has been the result of pure fiction requires a far more skeptical and cynical mind than I have.

It wasn't Jesus that made an impact on the world, Mystic. It was the Church's PRESENTATION of Jesus and their depiction of him that made an impact on the world.



Think of it, Mystic:


If God were really as concerned about saving souls as the Church presents God as being, could not God within a few months of Jesus resurrection have blasted the news of Jesus' salvific death and resurrection to the entire Mediterranean basin of 78 MILLION inhabitants so that literally everyone in the Roman empire would have known of Jesus? He could have...but he didn't.



God's stunning failure to do anything to let tens of millions of people know about the fact that he, God had just saved everyone from eternal damnation through his son's death and resurrection speaks in the starkest language of just how bungling and incompetent God is at best and how deliberately negligent and uncaring about humanity he is at worst.


There's no third rail about this matter--no off-ramp that absolves God of the staggering neglect he demonstrated in not doing anything more to let people know about Jesus having risen than to have Jesus command a dismal few uneducated backward fishermen in a backwater nothing village like Galilee to go and preach his message to 78 million people who had no idea who Jesus was.


Just to type this fact as I am doing now seems so bizarre when we're talking about a God who purports to have the power to hold the entire universe in his palm and then realize he can't even do a half-way competent job of getting his religion off the ground. Truly mind-boggling. Or it's all just a phony farce.
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Old 02-13-2024, 11:35 PM
 
Location: Germany
16,814 posts, read 5,020,322 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I am enjoying your very sophisticated and educated modern minds grappling with these ancient recordings.
Sophisticated and educated modern minds that understand how people of that time wrote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
What we can say about them is that they recorded some rather extraordinary events and a very extraordinary man.
Extraordinary such as Obi-Wan Kenobi? And the fact the events are extraordinary (walking on water, the feeding of the 5000) is a BIG clue they are fictional.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
His existence and impact on the world should not be discounted, marginalized, or minimized simply because the recordings were written and embellished by very unsophisticated, not very educated or nuanced primitive minds of unverifiable provenance, IMO. They are what they are and they wrote the way they wrote back then for reasons only they know.
Emphasis on the 'O'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
To pretend that such extraordinary impact and endurance has been the result of pure fiction requires a far more skeptical and cynical mind than I have.
No one is pretending, it is what the evidence shows. We know people invented gospels, we have over 40 of them. The same goes for the various Acts. You can pretend some of it was based on an actual man, but considering the large amount of allegorical myth making in the original, Mark, that is a good reason to ask if ALL of it is allegorical.
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Old 02-13-2024, 11:36 PM
 
Location: Land of the Free
6,751 posts, read 6,759,473 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElijahAstin View Post
But as a Jewish atheist whose ancestors were often tormented, maimed, and killed in Jesus’ name, let’s just say I’m not champing at the bit to use his alleged words and works as a teaching tool.
I'm a practicing Christian, but have a lot of Jewish blood on my mother's side. Think it's fair to say Islam has a far worse attitude towards Judaism today than Christianity, and that goes way beyond current issues in Israel. Muslims and Germans were friendly to one another during WW2, with Hitler and Himmler calling Islam "a great religion", and claiming "the people of Islam will always be closer to us than the people of France". The Muslim Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was granted "honorary Aryan" status for his collaboration with Hitler and The Third Reich.

But the reason the first Jews came to this country was Calvinist Christians. The Hebrew letters on the Yale Coat of Arms came from Puritans who required all students at the school to study Hebrew, and had a certain respect for Jews as the "chosen people". It was also Puritan Oliver Cromwell who allowed the Jews back into England during the 17th century. Christianity is also oversimplified by many Jews I know, who often don't get the diversity among different Christian groups. Catholics in the 16th century and 17th century weren't great to Jews, but guess what, they were even worse to Protestants. French Huguenots, who were Calvinist, came to this country after being booted out of their homeland by the Catholic king. Calvinist Netherlands not only took them in, but accepted educated Sephardic Jews, a pattern repeated in their New Amsterdam colony. But except for a brief period, no Catholics were allowed in New York until after the Revolutionary War, while it had been a home for Jews for well over 100 years.

Ultimately, while I have spent a lot of time learning about Jesus' life, I don't worry about the historical facts, I'm not an archaeologist. But as a person of faith, not of religion per se, Jesus' unmerited grace impacts my life every day, and that's what really matters.
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Old 02-14-2024, 04:44 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
20,090 posts, read 13,546,429 times
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Originally Posted by YorktownGal View Post
A spiritual leader would rein in speculation.
You'd think. And often, they do. But I've certainly seen them engaged in off-the-rails speculation, too -- and encourage their flock to follow suit.
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Old 02-14-2024, 05:26 PM
 
Location: NMB, SC
43,312 posts, read 18,428,133 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Just to type this fact as I am doing now seems so bizarre when we're talking about a God who purports to have the power to hold the entire universe in his palm and then realize he can't even do a half-way competent job of getting his religion off the ground. Truly mind-boggling. Or it's all just a phony farce.
maybe that's all he was supposed to do...plant the seed.

As you can see though...2000 years later christianity did cover most of the world.
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Old 02-14-2024, 05:33 PM
 
63,942 posts, read 40,218,720 times
Reputation: 7888
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I am enjoying your very sophisticated and educated modern minds grappling with these ancient recordings. What we can say about them is that they recorded some rather extraordinary events and a very extraordinary man. His existence and impact on the world should not be discounted, marginalized, or minimized simply because the recordings were written and embellished by very unsophisticated, not very educated or nuanced primitive minds of unverifiable provenance, IMO. They are what they are and they wrote the way they wrote back then for reasons only they know. To pretend that such extraordinary impact and endurance has been the result of pure fiction requires a far more skeptical and cynical mind than I have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
Sophisticated and educated modern minds that understand how people of that time wrote.
Extraordinary such as Obi-Wan Kenobi? And the fact the events are extraordinary (walking on water, the feeding of the 5000) is a BIG clue they are fictional.
Emphasis on the 'O'.
No one is pretending, it is what the evidence shows. We know people invented gospels, we have over 40 of them. The same goes for the various Acts. You can pretend some of it was based on an actual man, but considering the large amount of allegorical myth making in the original, Mark, that is a good reason to ask if ALL of it is allegorical.
You believe you know how they thought and wrote back then. I am not very confident about that since the differences in zeitgeist from as recent as the silent movie era is so readily discernible in our differing reactions to their serious and dramatic movies. If such huge differences in thinking and reacting to creative products exist from as recently as that, expecting to have the faintest CLUE about what they were like over 2000 and more years ago is extraordinarily presumptuous, at best.
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Old 02-14-2024, 06:20 PM
 
Location: North by Northwest
9,374 posts, read 13,042,789 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheseGoTo11 View Post
I'm a practicing Christian, but have a lot of Jewish blood on my mother's side.
Meaning…?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheseGoTo11 View Post
Think it's fair to say Islam has a far worse attitude towards Judaism today than Christianity, and that goes way beyond current issues in Israel.
Today, meaning the past 75 years? Possibly. But Muslim extremists have a whole lot of catching up to come even close to bridging the gap with Christian extremists during the preceding 1,925+ years.

That’s not to say things were always peachy keen for Jews in the Islamic world, or that Jews were treated as equals to their Muslim counterparts (which they weren’t). But the second-class citizen status of Jews in, say, the Ottoman Empire, was leaps and bounds better than, for instance, the Pale of Settlement, where they were non-citizen subjects whose status oscillated between barely begrudging tolerance and targets for annihilation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheseGoTo11 View Post
Muslims and Germans were friendly to one another during WW2, with Hitler and Himmler calling Islam "a great religion", and claiming "the people of Islam will always be closer to us than the people of France". The Muslim Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was granted "honorary Aryan" status for his collaboration with Hitler and The Third Reich.
By Muslims and Germans, you really just mean Nazi leadership and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. The funny thing about the formation of that relationship is Hitler having to downplay the fact that he initially tried to answer Germany’s Jewish question by encouraging Jewish emigration to Mandatory Palestine. It was one of but many Nazi alliances of convenience. That’s not at all to downplay or excuse the Grand Mufti’s antisemitism, which was no doubt abhorrent. But do not for one second forget that the Holocaust was instrumented and implemented by people who, if not observant Christians, were at least of nominal Christian background.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheseGoTo11 View Post
But the reason the first Jews came to this country was Calvinist Christians. The Hebrew letters on the Yale Coat of Arms came from Puritans who required all students at the school to study Hebrew, and had a certain respect for Jews as the "chosen people". It was also Puritan Oliver Cromwell who allowed the Jews back into England during the 17th century. Christianity is also oversimplified by many Jews I know, who often don't get the diversity among different Christian groups. Catholics in the 16th century and 17th century weren't great to Jews, but guess what, they were even worse to Protestants. French Huguenots, who were Calvinist, came to this country after being booted out of their homeland by the Catholic king. Calvinist Netherlands not only took them in, but accepted educated Sephardic Jews, a pattern repeated in their New Amsterdam colony. But except for a brief period, no Catholics were allowed in New York until after the Revolutionary War, while it had been a home for Jews for well over 100 years.
Oliver Cromwell, while better than his 400 years of predecessors who banished the Jews from England, really just looked the other way and allowed Jews to “informally” resettle because he thought Jewish merchants would boost international trade and bring in riches.

As for the status of Jews in Colonial America, they were a small and dispersed enough minority of a minority (no more than 2,500 or less than 0.10% of the population in 1776) that they could forge a coexistence as benign objects of curiosity in more enlightened circles. Of course that did not last, and antisemitism skyrocketed during the first and especially second great waves of Jewish immigration in the 1840s-1860s and 1890s-1920s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheseGoTo11 View Post
Ultimately, while I have spent a lot of time learning about Jesus' life, I don't worry about the historical facts, I'm not an archaeologist. But as a person of faith, not of religion per se, Jesus' unmerited grace impacts my life every day, and that's what really matters.
And that’s fine for you, but it still doesn’t explain why I should pay any Jesus Christ any heed.
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Old 02-14-2024, 08:38 PM
 
22,504 posts, read 19,304,533 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
maybe that's all he was supposed to do...plant the seed.

As you can see though...2000 years later christianity did cover most of the world.
No, it does not. It does not "cover most of the world."

In 2022, around 31.6 percent of the global population identify as Christian.

31.6 % is not "most" of anything.
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Old 02-14-2024, 08:43 PM
 
22,504 posts, read 19,304,533 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You believe you know how they thought and wrote back then. I am not very confident about that since the differences in zeitgeist from as recent as the silent movie era is so readily discernible in our differing reactions to their serious and dramatic movies. If such huge differences in thinking and reacting to creative products exist from as recently as that, expecting to have the faintest CLUE about what they were like over 2000 and more years ago is extraordinarily presumptuous, at best.
the bold above also holds true then for your own claims about what people were like back then, and about how they thought. For instance quoting your own words here "the recordings were written and embellished by very unsophisticated, not very educated or nuanced primitive minds."
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Old 02-14-2024, 10:02 PM
 
63,942 posts, read 40,218,720 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
the bold above also holds true then for your own claims about what people were like back then, and about how they thought. For instance quoting your own words here "the recordings were written and embellished by very unsophisticated, not very educated or nuanced primitive minds."
Hi Tzaph! So glad to see you posting. We can't possibly have the same zeitgeist, but we know that they were less civilized, educated, sophisticated, and more primitive than anyone today. That is not a hard calculus, Tzaph. No one today is throwing babies alive into fires to appease their God, etc. and that is why we cannot possibly put ourselves in their mindset.
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