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Old 02-12-2024, 06:50 PM
 
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You have to remember, Matthew that you're looking at all this from the prism of having been steeped in a Christianity that has existed for 2000+ years and stories of the Jesus mythos that have circulated the globe hundreds of millions of time.


Try to place yourself in the Mediterranean of 50-100 CE when Jesus is relatively unknown outside of a little sliver of land called Palestine. No secular historian has written a single word about Jesus in all of the first century, outside of the hotly-contested few interpolations that appear in Josephus. Circa 2nd century nobody of note is mentioning a single word about a Jesus outside of a couple of historians who mention a Chrestus or Christus but no Jesus and it is pure speculation to attribute these Chrestus's to a Jesus of Nazareth.


The reality is nobody outside of a handful of Christians even heard of Jesus in a Mediterranean basin populated with roughly 78 million people, which is astounding given that all of this was supposedly orchestrated by Yahweh who presumably wanted the entire world to know about the sacrifice on the cross he arranged for Jesus.


This is the astonishing part: that given Yahweh's power he could have had the news of Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection broadcasted all over the Mediterranean in a matter of a few months, but for some odd reason he chose to keep the whole thing under wraps known only to a few apostles. And he claims to want to save mankind from their sin through his son, Jesus. Go figure.

Last edited by thrillobyte; 02-12-2024 at 06:59 PM..
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Old 02-12-2024, 06:52 PM
 
7,329 posts, read 4,121,162 times
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Heavenese

I need proof of (1) Jesus sibling (2) proof Joseph as a stone mason (3) proof of poverty.

Jesus' teachings included things like building your house on the rock vs sand, teachings about the chief cornerstone the builders rejected is not proof!!! It was common sense in Jesus' time.


Quote:
But the Rev. C. Thomas Anderson, senior pastor of the Living Word Bible Church in Mesa, Arizona, preaches a version of the Christmas story that says baby Jesus wasn't so poor after all.

Anderson says Jesus couldn't have been poor because he received lucrative gifts -- gold, frankincense and myrrh -- at birth. Jesus had to be wealthy because the Roman soldiers who crucified him gambled for his expensive undergarments. Even Jesus' parents, Mary and Joseph, lived and traveled in style, he says.

"Mary and Joseph took a Cadillac to get to Bethlehem because the finest transportation of their day was a donkey," says Anderson. "Poor people ate their donkey. Only the wealthy used it as transportation."

Many Christians see Jesus as the poor, itinerant preacher who had "no place to lay his head." But as Christians gather around the globe this year to celebrate the birth of Jesus, another group of Christians are insisting that Jesus' beginnings weren't so humble.
Passions over 'prosperity gospel': Was Jesus wealthy? - CNN.com.

Quote:
Brown, the El Paso minister, says he doesn't say that Jesus was rich because he wants to give people an excuse to live self-indulgent lives. He wants people to understand that Jesus used his material and spiritual riches to help people -- and so should they

Brown says Jesus' own words prove that he wasn't poor. "Jesus said you will always have the poor, but you will not always have me," Brown says. "Jesus did not affirm himself as being part of the poor class...

"I believe he was the richest man on the face of the earth because he had God as his source," Brown says.
Jesus' wealth is evident even in the Gospel accounts of his execution, some pastors say. The New Testament reports that Roman soldiers gambled for Jesus' clothing while he hung on the cross. They wouldn't gamble for Jesus' clothing unless it was expensive, Anderson says.

"I don't know anybody -- even Pamela Anderson -- that would have people gambling for his underwear," Anderson says. "That was some fine stuff he wore."

Anderson says Jesus never would have had disciples or a large following if he was poor. He would not have been able to command their respect. "The poor will follow the rich, the rich will follow the rich, but the rich will never follow the poor," Anderson says.
Passions over 'prosperity gospel': Was Jesus wealthy? - CNN.com.

Quote:
The Bible does not explain details about the improved financial status of Jesus’ family; however, it is likely that over time they became part of what we would identify as the economic middle class. Historians tell us Nazareth was a prosperous town, especially for tradesmen, since it was located near the city of Sepphoris, a luxurious Roman vacation destination that was under constant construction. We can surmise that Joseph, being a carpenter (Matthew 13:55), would have benefited from this opportunity for steady employment. Evidently, Jesus eventually took up his father’s trade, since he was later known as “the carpenter” (Mark 6:3).
https://cfc.sebts.edu/faith-and-econ...h-poor-matter/

Quote:
This then leads to a second question: even though people in the Roman period were poor compared with anything in the modern world, they were not all equally poor, so where did Joseph, Mary and Jesus fit into the hierarchy of poverty and wealth in the Roman world?

This has actually been a subject of considerable debate amongst scholars of the New Testament for some time, though not much of that debate has filtered through to popular discussion. The main protagonists include Steven Friesen, who is a Mennonite and a particular scholar of the Book of Revelation, Bruce Longenecker, who has written much on aspects of material culture, Peter Oakes from Manchester, and Roland Deines, a German scholar who was for several years based here in Nottingham.
There is more evidence for this position between the rich and the very poor throughout the Gospels, and even a casual look at the people Jesus is associating with reveals that they are not the “destitute” in economic terms but people with at least some means and not bound in a daily struggle for survival, with some even having a certain surplus they can spend on things other than their own immediate subsistence.

Simon Peter owns a house (Mark 1:29 par. Matt 8:14; Luke 4:38) and a boat including fishing implements (Mark 1:16)…

Zebedee, the father of two of the disciples, also has a boat and even employs day-labourers (Mark 1:20); Jesus calls only the sons, not these hirelings, by the way. And in Luke 17:7, Jesus asks a non-specified audience what to say to a servant when he returns from the field to the house (Τίς δὲ ἐξ ὑμῶν δοῦλον ἔχων…). Even if this is merely an illustration for a teaching of Jesus and should not be read as a matter of fact, it is nevertheless worth recognizing that it is formulated from the perspective of the one who has a servant.

A similar picture emerges from the wider circle of disciples, like the many women who supported Jesus and the Twelve with their money (Luke 8:2f.); Joseph of Arimathea (Mark 15:43, 46 par. Luke 23:50f., 53, Matt 27:57, 59f.; John 19:38, 40f.); and Nicodemus (John 3:1; 19:39).

Levi-Matthew, the tax-collector (Mark 2:13–17 par. Matt 9:9–13; Luke 5:27–32) is able to invite many into his house, which points to a certain standard of living, even if one should not assume that all tax-collectors are wealthy just because of their profession… (there follows two more pages of examples)

In conclusion, Jesus is not addressing directly the very rich nor the very poor (in economic terms). The really rich and the destitute are actually – with some notable exceptions – rather absent as real persons. Instead, they function as types against which the followers of Jesus have to learn how to follow him with regard to their possessions (pp 350–354).

All this makes perfect sense when you think about it; most of us find the teaching of Jesus relevant, engaging and practical. If he were primarily addressing either the rich elite or the destitute poor, then we would have more trouble making sense of it.

Thirdly, outside this there is simply no suggestion that Joseph and Mary were distinctively materially poor, or that this formed any significant part of the birth narrative. When Paul says in 2 Cor 8.9 ‘that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich’, it is clear that ‘richness’ is a reference to his heavenly splendour, that ‘poverty’ is his becoming human, like us, and that in return our ‘richness’ is our inheritance in the kingdom of God. Paul is not here referring to distinctive material poverty but to our inheritance in Christ.
https://www.psephizo.com/biblical-st...a-poor-family/

It's common sense that isn't different from today - any craftsman or artisan is not poor. It's a decent skill to make a good living.
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Old 02-13-2024, 06:46 AM
 
2,412 posts, read 1,445,126 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal View Post
Heavenese

I need proof of (1) Jesus sibling (2) proof Joseph as a stone mason (3) proof of poverty.

Jesus' teachings included things like building your house on the rock vs sand, teachings about the chief cornerstone the builders rejected is not proof!!! It was common sense in Jesus' time.


Passions over 'prosperity gospel': Was Jesus wealthy? - CNN.com.

Passions over 'prosperity gospel': Was Jesus wealthy? - CNN.com.

https://cfc.sebts.edu/faith-and-econ...h-poor-matter/

https://www.psephizo.com/biblical-st...a-poor-family/

It's common sense that isn't different from today - any craftsman or artisan is not poor. It's a decent skill to make a good living.

Again, the Historical Jesus doesn't include wise men of the East, and it doesn't even include Jesus being born in Bethlehem. (And the donkey is only mentioned after the wise men's visit. Luke's account never mentions a donkey in their travel to Bethlehem or back to Nazareth) Yet if we are to include these things, what do you do with Luke 2 24? Mary offered a poor woman's offering for her purification. If she could afford the offering God demanded according to the Law, she cheated God. So that would be a problem if Jesus' family was middle class or higher.


Yet I don't want to belabor this. A question I would have for you is why would Jesus having siblings be so astronomical in your eyes? If Jesus had brothers and sisters, would that irrevocably damage how you see Him? Jesus being in a poor family, would you spit on that? And Jesus being a craftsman, I have no doubt He would have probably been skilled in all areas in that line of work. (Wood, stone, even perhaps metal) However He would have had to travel for work, and His income would have been dependent on jobs offered. Most likely Jesus was a day laborer, getting work where it presented itself. He didn't have a business, He had a skill. And yet again, why would the things I mentioned be earth shattering for you if they were true?
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Old 02-13-2024, 07:07 AM
 
Location: West Virginia
16,667 posts, read 15,663,359 times
Reputation: 10922
Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal View Post
Heavenese

I need proof of (1) Jesus sibling (2) proof Joseph as a stone mason (3) proof of poverty.

Jesus' teachings included things like building your house on the rock vs sand, teachings about the chief cornerstone the builders rejected is not proof!!! It was common sense in Jesus' time.


Passions over 'prosperity gospel': Was Jesus wealthy? - CNN.com.

Passions over 'prosperity gospel': Was Jesus wealthy? - CNN.com.

https://cfc.sebts.edu/faith-and-econ...h-poor-matter/

https://www.psephizo.com/biblical-st...a-poor-family/

It's common sense that isn't different from today - any craftsman or artisan is not poor. It's a decent skill to make a good living.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post
Again, the Historical Jesus doesn't include wise men of the East, and it doesn't even include Jesus being born in Bethlehem. (And the donkey is only mentioned after the wise men's visit. Luke's account never mentions a donkey in their travel to Bethlehem or back to Nazareth) Yet if we are to include these things, what do you do with Luke 2 24? Mary offered a poor woman's offering for her purification. If she could afford the offering God demanded according to the Law, she cheated God. So that would be a problem if Jesus' family was middle class or higher.


Yet I don't want to belabor this. A question I would have for you is why would Jesus having siblings be so astronomical in your eyes? If Jesus had brothers and sisters, would that irrevocably damage how you see Him? Jesus being in a poor family, would you spit on that? And Jesus being a craftsman, I have no doubt He would have probably been skilled in all areas in that line of work. (Wood, stone, even perhaps metal) However He would have had to travel for work, and His income would have been dependent on jobs offered. Most likely Jesus was a day laborer, getting work where it presented itself. He didn't have a business, He had a skill. And yet again, why would the things I mentioned be earth shattering for you if they were true?
Do you consider that an adequate response to YorktownGal's comment where she said: "I need proof of (1) Jesus sibling (2) proof Joseph as a stone mason (3) proof of poverty."

I'm not asking for proof, but some evidence would be useful. Otherwise, you're just making stuff up.

What makes you think Jesus was a stone mason? Joseph was a carpenter, and it would have been common in that society for a son to follow his father's trade. That would make an assumption that Jesus had learned carpentry fairly reasonable, but I want to know what evidence you have to support your [very unusual] claim that Jesus was a stone mason.
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Old 02-13-2024, 07:07 AM
 
Location: NMB, SC
43,073 posts, read 18,237,901 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post
Again, the Historical Jesus doesn't include wise men of the East, and it doesn't even include Jesus being born in Bethlehem. (And the donkey is only mentioned after the wise men's visit. Luke's account never mentions a donkey in their travel to Bethlehem or back to Nazareth) Yet if we are to include these things, what do you do with Luke 2 24? Mary offered a poor woman's offering for her purification. If she could afford the offering God demanded according to the Law, she cheated God. So that would be a problem if Jesus' family was middle class or higher.


Yet I don't want to belabor this. A question I would have for you is why would Jesus having siblings be so astronomical in your eyes? If Jesus had brothers and sisters, would that irrevocably damage how you see Him? Jesus being in a poor family, would you spit on that? And Jesus being a craftsman, I have no doubt He would have probably been skilled in all areas in that line of work. (Wood, stone, even perhaps metal) However He would have had to travel for work, and His income would have been dependent on jobs offered. Most likely Jesus was a day laborer, getting work where it presented itself. He didn't have a business, He had a skill. And yet again, why would the things I mentioned be earth shattering for you if they were true?
Because then Mary wouldn't have been a virgin all her life.
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Old 02-13-2024, 07:25 AM
 
2,412 posts, read 1,445,126 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
Do you consider that an adequate response to YorktownGal's comment where she said: "I need proof of (1) Jesus sibling (2) proof Joseph as a stone mason (3) proof of poverty."

I'm not asking for proof, but some evidence would be useful. Otherwise, you're just making stuff up.

What makes you think Jesus was a stone mason? Joseph was a carpenter, and it would have been common in that society for a son to follow his father's trade. That would make an assumption that Jesus had learned carpentry fairly reasonable, but I want to know what evidence you have to support your [very unusual] claim that Jesus was a stone mason.

In terms of evidence, scholars pull from the Gospels themselves, even from the historical point of view. The Gospels said Jesus had siblings. So when it comes to Jesus being a stone mason, this comes down to likelihood given the work that would have been available in the region where He grew up. The Gospels use the Greek word "tektón", from where we get our word architect from. It's meaning is "builder", "craftsmen", and "artisan". So in most English translations of the Bible it is translated as "carpenter". Again given where Jesus grew up, there was a lot of construction around the region, most likely Jesus was skilled in this area. To be solely a woodworker in Nazareth would limit His opportunity to make money.

When dealing in likelihoods, Jesus probably was a stone mason, but could have been skilled in all areas of that caliber job. That's really all I have. In terms of sources, I'll just leave it for everyone to look into for themselves if it interests them that much. It's not like I'm discussing the unifying theory between General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics here. I'm not even discussing Jesus being the actual Messiah and Son of God. I don't believe sources are required for all this. Jesus having siblings, not that big a deal. Jesus being a stone mason, who cares? Its not really the point of this topic. Yet if someone finds info for me from the historical view that goes against what I've laid out, I would accept that. Its also not that big a deal for me to be wrong. If most scholars disagree Jesus had siblings or came from a middle class family, I don't have a problem with that.

Last edited by Heavenese; 02-13-2024 at 07:46 AM..
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Old 02-13-2024, 07:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
Because then Mary wouldn't have been a virgin all her life.

Thanks, I see this point. Yet I would say all in all, even from a Catholic point of view, I'm not setting up doctrine with this topic. However this mention would shatter a view concerning Mary. Thanks for this reasoning.
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Old 02-13-2024, 07:29 AM
 
Location: NMB, SC
43,073 posts, read 18,237,901 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post
Thanks, I see this point. Yet I would say all in all, even from a Catholic point of view, I'm not setting up doctrine with this topic. However this mention would shatter a view concerning Mary. Thanks for this reasoning.
The early church fathers decided that Mary was a perpetual virgin sometime around the 4th century.
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Old 02-13-2024, 07:55 AM
 
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Basically, entire OP has wrong title.
It should be "What can we learn from the "Gospel Jesus", not "historical" Jesus. Read #86. Circular reasoning again. It is true because it is so said in the Gospels. That Gospels are work of humans, is not even considered. Because, it is said in the Gospels. Absolute 200% solid historical proof.
Thereafter, there is no need to continue, as all t-s are crossed.
And, if you change it to "historical", you have no merit, as there is no proof of that particular divine figure ever existing. Even finding a tomb with "Yeshua was buried here" means nothing, as Yeshua was a popular name, so was Marrah, or Marriah, transliteration of Sarrah, there and then.
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Old 02-13-2024, 08:14 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
The early church fathers decided that Mary was a perpetual virgin sometime around the 4th century.
Exactly.

Quote:
The perpetual virginity of Mary is a Christian doctrine that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was a virgin "before, during and after" the birth of Christ. In Western Christianity, the Catholic Church adheres to the doctrine, as do some Lutherans, Anglicans, Reformed, and other Protestants. The Oriental Orthodox Churches also adhere to this doctrine as part of their ongoing tradition, and Eastern Orthodox churches recognize Mary as Aeiparthenos, meaning "ever-virgin". It is one of the four Marian dogmas of the Catholic Church. Most modern nonconformist Protestants reject the doctrine.

The Second Council of Constantinople in 553 gave her the title "Aeiparthenos", meaning Perpetual Virgin, and at the Lateran Synod of 649 Pope Martin I emphasized the threefold character of the perpetual virginity, before, during, and after the birth of Christ. The Lutheran Smalcald Articles (1537) and the Reformed Second Helvetic Confession (1562) codified the doctrine of perpetual virginity of Mary as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpet...nt_Reformation

Again, in an age before surnames and no word for "cousins," you can not read the Bible as a source of Jesus' family ties. We don't know about Joseph life before his marriage to Mary. Did Joseph have children before Jesus? While I doubt it, Jesus was then never the oldest child.

I really what what Heavenese is trying to do, but there is no historical basis birth, baptism or death certificates for Jesus. There are no government documents for birth and death of Joseph, Mary or St. John the Baptism either. It's truly a matter of faith.
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