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Old 02-17-2024, 03:36 PM
 
19,013 posts, read 27,569,699 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Ukrkoz, if there weren't people like myself trying to draw to the readers' attention all that is wrong with Christianity then where would discussion commence? I am trying to do newbies a valuable service--I am trying to deliver the facts to them that they would never get from Christian leaders--leaders who want people to stay in the dark about the realities of their religion because it benefits them, not the individuals. It does nobody any good to grow up believing that the world is 6000 years old when science shows us fossils that have existed for millions of years.



I'm not surprised you don't want to go into a deep analysis of what I say because what I say is the truth, in contrast with the falsehoods that flow out of Christianity to keep it viable. My original premise was that if God loves us and really wants to save us he could accomplish his goal in a matter of seconds, yet as BF points out, he doesn't want to. That creates a serious cognitive dissonance situation where God says he wants something desperately but then chooses not to bring it about. But when one analyzes the situation one comes to two implacable realities:


Either God doesn't really love us as much as he claims or he would move heaven and earth to bring us to the knowledge of Jesus' sacrifice


or


He simply doesn't exist, which would explain perfectly his refusal to do anything meaningful that can be observed overtly to help us to attain salvation.



Gotta be one or the other if you're using sound rational logic. Take your pick.
You fully missed the point, of what I said. Not sure, if you even read it or tried to listen to the message.
Now, carve this somewhere - I am not a formal Christian and do not find formal Christianity of much spiritual value. So scratch that.
YOU have a deep spiritual chasm in you. Lack of it. No offense or disrespect. Somewhere, deep deep inside, you feel that void. You are trying to fill it with your crusade and then, your justifier mind, will provide arguments to prove your mission, etc.
You are wasting your life on mission, that gives you no betterment. Only builds negative karma. This is why you need to fill that void inside, finding your own faith, whatever it might be. Options are plenty or, make your own.
But then, you'll achieve peace, you lack.

Peace be with you
'
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Old 02-17-2024, 03:38 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
19,958 posts, read 13,455,445 times
Reputation: 9911
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
You have a problem with a person pointing out logical fallacy of appealing to authority?
The appeal to authority fallacy is citing someone who is not actually an authority on the topic at hand. For example, citing a highly celebrated and accomplished software developer's support for the notion that lizard people (aliens) live among us. Just because someone is educated, intelligent and accomplished in a field doesn't make them authoritative on anything outside their field -- nor automatically right even about everything IN their field.

In the case of Luke, Luke isn't an authority on Luke. He makes a claim (which you misconstrue anyway) at the start of the book that he collected eyewitness accounts. But he doesn't state his methodology or factual standards, if any, and his wording implies more a collection of sayings or stories that are generally favored or accepted by whoever "us" is. Modern standards of journalism weren't thought of yet at the time, so you should not project those standards onto his claim of "eyewitnesses". The normal trajectory for writings of this era were oral tradition => written down, not a systematic and objective interviewing of vetted witnesses => written down.

It is the uniform testimony of scholars actually specializing in the analysis of documents of that era that the gospels were named after various apostles in the 2nd century, and other than Luke's self-claim of authorship there is no byline on the gospels. Mark was not likely written by THAT Mark or any Mark. It's just a post hoc label. No one apart from laypersons and uninformed or dissembling clergy claim that the gospels of Matthew, Mark, and John bear the names of their actual authors.
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Old 02-17-2024, 03:51 PM
 
63,779 posts, read 40,047,381 times
Reputation: 7868
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
The appeal to authority fallacy is citing someone who is not actually an authority on the topic at hand. For example, citing a highly celebrated and accomplished software developer's support for the notion that lizard people (aliens) live among us. Just because someone is educated, intelligent and accomplished in a field doesn't make them authoritative on anything outside their field -- nor automatically right even about everything IN their field.

In the case of Luke, Luke isn't an authority on Luke. He makes a claim (which you misconstrue anyway) at the start of the book that he collected eyewitness accounts. But he doesn't state his methodology or factual standards, if any, and his wording implies more a collection of sayings or stories that are generally favored or accepted by whoever "us" is. Modern standards of journalism weren't thought of yet at the time, so you should not project those standards onto his claim of "eyewitnesses". The normal trajectory for writings of this era were oral tradition => written down, not a systematic and objective interviewing of vetted witnesses => written down.

It is the uniform testimony of scholars actually specializing in the analysis of documents of that era that the gospels were named after various apostles in the 2nd century, and other than Luke's self-claim of authorship there is no byline on the gospels. Mark was not likely written by THAT Mark or any Mark. It's just a post hoc label. No one apart from laypersons and uninformed or dissembling clergy claim that the gospels of Matthew, Mark, and John bear the names of their actual authors.
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Old 02-17-2024, 04:33 PM
 
22,149 posts, read 19,203,648 times
Reputation: 18269
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
The appeal to authority fallacy is citing someone who is not actually an authority on the topic at hand. For example, citing a highly celebrated and accomplished software developer's support for the notion that lizard people (aliens) live among us. Just because someone is educated, intelligent and accomplished in a field doesn't make them authoritative on anything outside their field -- nor automatically right even about everything IN their field.

In the case of Luke, Luke isn't an authority on Luke. He makes a claim (which you misconstrue anyway) at the start of the book that he collected eyewitness accounts. But he doesn't state his methodology or factual standards, if any, and his wording implies more a collection of sayings or stories that are generally favored or accepted by whoever "us" is. Modern standards of journalism weren't thought of yet at the time, so you should not project those standards onto his claim of "eyewitnesses". The normal trajectory for writings of this era were oral tradition => written down, not a systematic and objective interviewing of vetted witnesses => written down.

It is the uniform testimony of scholars actually specializing in the analysis of documents of that era that the gospels were named after various apostles in the 2nd century, and other than Luke's self-claim of authorship there is no byline on the gospels. Mark was not likely written by THAT Mark or any Mark. It's just a post hoc label. No one apart from laypersons and uninformed or dissembling clergy claim that the gospels of Matthew, Mark, and John bear the names of their actual authors.
regarding bold above, yes that is why atheists are not authorities on divinity.
divinity is outside the scope of what atheists comprehend.
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Old 02-17-2024, 05:23 PM
 
18,249 posts, read 16,907,876 times
Reputation: 7553
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
Says the one that is making unfounded assertions and claiming "scholars say".

My scholar can beat up your scholar.

You mean besides Luke 1? Where he said so?


Now I know why I rarely respond to you. At no point have you come up with any new arguments, but you have shown yourself to be unreasonable. I don't WHY you hate so much, but I feel sorry for you. I really do. It must be tiring to hate that much.

I don't hate Christianity. I am indifferent to it. What I hate is Christians deliberately fabricating things in an attempt to sway gullible greenhorns into accepting their religion. Your line, "All the gospels were written by eyewitnesses" is a perfect example. Completely false. And then when caught you correct yourself:


Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
I'm sorry if I misspoke. Yes, I'm aware Luke was not an eyewitness account. But he DID interview eyewitnesses. And the other 3 were written by eyewitnesses. The epistles were written by eyewitnesses. Paul met Jesus on the road to Damascus and was personally tutored and commissioned by him.

And then launch into more dishonest statements that have been proven false to you time and time again.

And you've been called out on these untruths time and time again and yet you persist in telling them. It's this kind of dishonesty that I hate, and that's why I don't hesitate to call you and other Christians out on it. Just try telling the truth when you write something in defense of your religion and it won't be necessary for me to constantly post to correct the untruths you continuously spread.
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Old 02-17-2024, 05:26 PM
 
9,689 posts, read 10,009,914 times
Reputation: 1927
God would never save all mankind, with a stroke of a miracle as life of earth is just a test of God to show that individuals are willing to love God and be under their fruit of the spirit in heaven, people must prove their heart before God as if God made a mistake on a person in heaven were that person would sin in heaven than that person would be extracted from heaven and sent to the lake of fire were there soul and spirit would die, See this is the justice that God is just, as the world conditions for the wicked today there would be very little justice accepted for ultra liberal thinking people ideas
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Old 02-17-2024, 05:46 PM
 
18,249 posts, read 16,907,876 times
Reputation: 7553
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
You fully missed the point, of what I said. Not sure, if you even read it or tried to listen to the message.
Now, carve this somewhere - I am not a formal Christian and do not find formal Christianity of much spiritual value. So scratch that.
YOU have a deep spiritual chasm in you. Lack of it. No offense or disrespect. Somewhere, deep deep inside, you feel that void. You are trying to fill it with your crusade and then, your justifier mind, will provide arguments to prove your mission, etc.
You are wasting your life on mission, that gives you no betterment. Only builds negative karma. This is why you need to fill that void inside, finding your own faith, whatever it might be. Options are plenty or, make your own.
But then, you'll achieve peace, you lack.

Peace be with you
'

Okay, you're trying to be decent about this and I appreciate that. I think that you're coming from the direction that I am a troubled person warring with myself over God and never having any peace inside of me which I must then unleash on others.



I have deep regret having wasted so much of my life on Christianity but I can live with it. I have no deep chasm that I am trying to fill. My heartfelt conviction is that nobody needs religion. They're better off without it. What sets me off is all the dishonesty I read on this forum because I know that lurkers who read these threads take at face value most of what Christians propagate to be the truth and then are blindly led into joining Christianity not having the facts. That is what motivates me to post, nothing else. So this is not a situation where I am fighting in a blind attempt to find my way back to God, nothing of the sort so you can put that hunch to rest.


So are you getting the sense that it's not me that I am concerned about, it is others who I don't want falling into the web of deceit that is part and parcel of the Christian belief system. I think Christianity is fine for the social aspects. They get together at church and fellowship and laugh and have a good time and go on outings and I have no problem with people using religion to have some fun in a world where fun is in such short supply. I just wish they'd ditch this thing of feeling like they have to spread their beliefs to the world in order to score points with Jesus on judgement day.
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Old 02-17-2024, 06:01 PM
 
22,149 posts, read 19,203,648 times
Reputation: 18269
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Okay, you're trying to be decent about this and I appreciate that. I think that you're coming from the direction that I am a troubled person warring with myself over God and never having any peace inside of me which I must then unleash on others.

I have deep regret having wasted so much of my life on Christianity but I can live with it. I have no deep chasm that I am trying to fill. My heartfelt conviction is that nobody needs religion. They're better off without it. What sets me off is all the dishonesty I read on this forum because I know that lurkers who read these threads take at face value most of what Christians propagate to be the truth and then are blindly led into joining Christianity not having the facts. That is what motivates me to post, nothing else. So this is not a situation where I am fighting in a blind attempt to find my way back to God, nothing of the sort so you can put that hunch to rest.

So are you getting the sense that it's not me that I am concerned about, it is others who I don't want falling into the web of deceit that is part and parcel of the Christian belief system. I think Christianity is fine for the social aspects. They get together at church and fellowship and laugh and have a good time and go on outings and I have no problem with people using religion to have some fun in a world where fun is in such short supply. I just wish they'd ditch this thing of feeling like they have to spread their beliefs to the world in order to score points with Jesus on judgement day.
somewhere along the way, you have failed to grasp that while you can decide for yourself what you do or don't need; but no, you don't get to decide what other people do or don't need.

you proclaiming "nobody needs religion" "they are better off without it"
is identical to those who say "everybody needs religion." if you don't like hearing or being told "everybody needs religion" then don't inflict that identical disregard on other people.

that seems really difficult for you to grasp. And no it is not "dishonesty" for people to have different views than you do.
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Old 02-17-2024, 06:04 PM
 
18,249 posts, read 16,907,876 times
Reputation: 7553
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
regarding bold above, yes that is why atheists are not authorities on divinity.
divinity is outside the scope of what atheists comprehend.

That is why atheists rely on scholarship from individuals educated and degreed in history and theology of religions to cite for their authorities. Every time I call a Christian out on something dishonest that they have claimed is true about Christianity I cite an authority by someone expert in the field so I know I am not the one spreading misinformation. At least I try to.


When a Christian says something as outrageous as "There is more evidence for Jesus than there is for Julius Caesar" I hit the ceiling. I immediately point out that for Julius Caesar we have busts, we have reliefs, we have his authenticated writings, we have his campaigns, we have coins with his likeness and inscription, we have numerous other Romans' treatises that mention him. We have none of this for Jesus. We have no inscriptions, no busts, no reliefs, no artifacts, no writings, no coins, no secular testimonies even mentioning him. So how on earth do Christians get off making such an outrageous statement like, "There is more evidence for Jesus than there is for Julius Caesar?"
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Old 02-17-2024, 06:10 PM
 
18,249 posts, read 16,907,876 times
Reputation: 7553
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
somewhere along the way, you have failed to grasp that while you can decide for yourself what you do or don't need; but no, you don't get to decide what other people do or don't need.

you proclaiming "nobody needs religion" "they are better off without it"
is identical to those who say "everybody needs religion." if you don't like hearing or being told "everybody needs religion" then don't inflict that identical disregard on other people.

that seems really difficult for you to grasp. And no it is not "dishonesty" for people to have different views than you do.

So you feel it's perfectly okay for a Christian to tell a lie on these forums in order to convince a person to accept Jesus as their savior?
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