Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 02-16-2024, 08:44 AM
 
18,183 posts, read 16,747,601 times
Reputation: 7416

Advertisements

Most ex-Christians, this ex-Christian at least, have gone through some extremely difficult soul-searching before finally arriving at the decision to abandon Christianity as not being the decent honest trustworthy religion that apologists have tried to convince humanity it is for the last 2,000 years with varying degrees of success.


Putting aside all the lies that have convinced people to join Christianity such as "There is more evidence for Jesus than there is for Julius Caesar" (there isn't--in fact there isn't a single truthful reference to Jesus Christ at all in the secular historic record) and "All the apostles were willing to die for their faith" (They weren't. The truth is we have no secular historical evidence the apostles even existed, much less they died for their faith) and "If you ask the Father for anything in Jesus' name he will grant it" (he won't--all the evidence points to not a single miracle ever having occurred as a direct result of prayer.


Putting aside ALL of this rubbish, there remains one insurmountable question that apologists and Christians in general cannot answer and indeed are loathed to try to answer. It is this question that is responsible for more Christians having fallen away from the faith than any other, and believe me there are a lot of them:


If God truly loves mankind as much as the Christians say he does


and


If God really wants to save mankind from its sins so that mankind can avoid the fires of hell


and


If God is the most powerful entity in the universe--so powerful that, as the Christians constantly claim, he can hold the entire universe, all quadrillions of galaxies in the palm of his hand


Then why didn't God brazenly announce Jesus' death and resurrection to the entire world shortly after Jesus ascended--an act that would have been child's play for such a powerful God and would have resulted in nearly all 78 million of the citizens of the Roman empire converting to Christianity and having their souls saved, instead of God leaving tens of billions of people over the millennia to perish in their sins because he couldn't be bothered to exercise a little of that vast power of his to arrange a few billion stars to spell out, "Jesus the Christ died for your sins?" After all, didn't God supernaturally place the Nativity Star in the heavens for the wise men to follow to the baby Jesus? Would aligning stars be too difficult for God?



These are the kinds of questions that ex-Christians have been brave enough to ask about their faith, and logic and reality have led them to the truth of the matter:


That God is unwilling or unable to do anything powerful enough to cause all of mankind to want to turn from their sins and accept his son, Jesus as their savior to save them from the torments of an eternity in the fires of hell. He simply doesn't care about us or he would prove his love by doing something so monumental to prove Jesus' death and resurrection that no person in their right mind could deny Jesus died for their sins.


Christians determined to stick with their faith cannot or will not ask the hard questions that would test their faith because they are so terrified of the commonsense answers to such questions that they basically just bury their heads in the sand refusing to even consider the matter. It's their right of course to live in a perpetual state of denial of the truth, but what a sad way to go through life denying the reality of an uncaring unfeeling God that continuously demonstrates his complete indifference to mankind.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 02-16-2024, 10:35 AM
 
63,354 posts, read 39,631,847 times
Reputation: 7768
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Most ex-Christians, this ex-Christian at least, have gone through some extremely difficult soul-searching before finally arriving at the decision to abandon Christianity as not being the decent honest trustworthy religion that apologists have tried to convince humanity it is for the last 2,000 years with varying degrees of success.


Putting aside all the lies that have convinced people to join Christianity such as "There is more evidence for Jesus than there is for Julius Caesar" (there isn't--in fact there isn't a single truthful reference to Jesus Christ at all in the secular historic record) and "All the apostles were willing to die for their faith" (They weren't. The truth is we have no secular historical evidence the apostles even existed, much less they died for their faith) and "If you ask the Father for anything in Jesus' name he will grant it" (he won't--all the evidence points to not a single miracle ever having occurred as a direct result of prayer.


Putting aside ALL of this rubbish, there remains one insurmountable question that apologists and Christians in general cannot answer and indeed are loathed to try to answer. It is this question that is responsible for more Christians having fallen away from the faith than any other, and believe me there are a lot of them:


If God truly loves mankind as much as the Christians say he does


and


If God really wants to save mankind from its sins so that mankind can avoid the fires of hell


and


If God is the most powerful entity in the universe--so powerful that, as the Christians constantly claim, he can hold the entire universe, all quadrillions of galaxies in the palm of his hand


Then why didn't God brazenly announce Jesus' death and resurrection to the entire world shortly after Jesus ascended--an act that would have been child's play for such a powerful God and would have resulted in nearly all 78 million of the citizens of the Roman empire converting to Christianity and having their souls saved, instead of God leaving tens of billions of people over the millennia to perish in their sins because he couldn't be bothered to exercise a little of that vast power of his to arrange a few billion stars to spell out, "Jesus the Christ died for your sins?" After all, didn't God supernaturally place the Nativity Star in the heavens for the wise men to follow to the baby Jesus? Would aligning stars be too difficult for God?



These are the kinds of questions that ex-Christians have been brave enough to ask about their faith, and logic and reality have led them to the truth of the matter:


That God is unwilling or unable to do anything powerful enough to cause all of mankind to want to turn from their sins and accept his son, Jesus as their savior to save them from the torments of an eternity in the fires of hell. He simply doesn't care about us or he would prove his love by doing something so monumental to prove Jesus' death and resurrection that no person in their right mind could deny Jesus died for their sins.


Christians determined to stick with their faith cannot or will not ask the hard questions that would test their faith because they are so terrified of the commonsense answers to such questions that they basically just bury their heads in the sand refusing to even consider the matter. It's their right of course to live in a perpetual state of denial of the truth, but what a sad way to go through life denying the reality of an uncaring unfeeling God that continuously demonstrates his complete indifference to mankind.
Thrll, all your efforts accomplish is to show that the UNBELIEVABLE things believed about God by Christians are UNBELIEVABLE. That just means they are WRONG. It has nothing to do with whether or not God EXISTS. It is no great accomplishment to discover that we do NOT KNOW God despite the myriad religions claiming to do so. What should occupy your mind is why we seem inclined to believe in God despite these difficulties. Besides, it is more "magical thinking" to believe that our utterly unique and extraordinary awareness and ability to question such things (evident nowhere else within the physical laws and processes of material reality) "JUST EXISTS" (or "EMERGES") without any explicable SOURCE with the same ability, IMO.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-16-2024, 11:14 AM
Status: "My worldview is based on the inerrant word of God." (set 23 days ago)
 
18,695 posts, read 6,803,712 times
Reputation: 3517
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Most ex-Christians, this ex-Christian at least, have gone through some extremely difficult soul-searching before finally arriving at the decision to abandon Christianity as not being the decent honest trustworthy religion that apologists have tried to convince humanity it is for the last 2,000 years with varying degrees of success.


Putting aside all the lies that have convinced people to join Christianity such as "There is more evidence for Jesus than there is for Julius Caesar" (there isn't--in fact there isn't a single truthful reference to Jesus Christ at all in the secular historic record) and "All the apostles were willing to die for their faith" (They weren't. The truth is we have no secular historical evidence the apostles even existed, much less they died for their faith) and "If you ask the Father for anything in Jesus' name he will grant it" (he won't--all the evidence points to not a single miracle ever having occurred as a direct result of prayer.


Putting aside ALL of this rubbish, there remains one insurmountable question that apologists and Christians in general cannot answer and indeed are loathed to try to answer. It is this question that is responsible for more Christians having fallen away from the faith than any other, and believe me there are a lot of them:


If God truly loves mankind as much as the Christians say he does


and
If God really wants to save mankind from its sins so that mankind can avoid the fires of hell


and


If God is the most powerful entity in the universe--so powerful that, as the Christians constantly claim, he can hold the entire universe, all quadrillions of galaxies in the palm of his hand


Then why didn't God brazenly announce Jesus' death and resurrection to the entire world shortly after Jesus ascended--an act that would have been child's play for such a powerful God and would have resulted in nearly all 78 million of the citizens of the Roman empire converting to Christianity and having their souls saved, instead of God leaving tens of billions of people over the millennia to perish in their sins because he couldn't be bothered to exercise a little of that vast power of his to arrange a few billion stars to spell out, "Jesus the Christ died for your sins?" After all, didn't God supernaturally place the Nativity Star in the heavens for the wise men to follow to the baby Jesus? Would aligning stars be too difficult for God?
  • He loves the world so much that he became man, suffered and died on the cross.
  • He loves humanity so much that he will change the heart of a sinner, and grant them faith to trust in what he did.
  • He loves his believers so much that he gives them the church. He gave us apostles, and prophets and evangelists and shepherds and teachers.
  • He loves his church so much that he gave us his Word, to know him, to follow him, and to find life.

Quote:

These are the kinds of questions that ex-Christians have been brave enough to ask about their faith, and logic and reality have led them to the truth of the matter:
I don't believe for a second you actually want the answer to these questions that you claim to be "brave" by asking. I've seen no desire to learn from you.
Quote:

That God is unwilling or unable to do anything powerful enough to cause all of mankind to want to turn from their sins and accept his son, Jesus as their savior to save them from the torments of an eternity in the fires of hell. He simply doesn't care about us or he would prove his love by doing something so monumental to prove Jesus' death and resurrection that no person in their right mind could deny Jesus died for their sins.
The issue is that you think this all-powerful God would do things according to you. And because he does not cow-tow to YOUR demands, he does not exist. Sorry. Doesn't work that way. He's God, you're not.

He does care, but he's also just. And he will punish evil.
Quote:

Christians determined to stick with their faith cannot or will not ask the hard questions that would test their faith because they are so terrified of the commonsense answers to such questions that they basically just bury their heads in the sand refusing to even consider the matter. It's their right of course to live in a perpetual state of denial of the truth, but what a sad way to go through life denying the reality of an uncaring unfeeling God that continuously demonstrates his complete indifference to mankind.
I can answer any of the supposedly "hard" questions you ask. But I rarely read your posts because all you really seem to want to do is mock and attack.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-16-2024, 11:28 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,119 posts, read 23,785,288 times
Reputation: 32519
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
  • He loves the world so much that he became man, suffered and died on the cross.
  • He loves humanity so much that he will change the heart of a sinner, and grant them faith to trust in what he did.
  • He loves his believers so much that he gives them the church. He gave us apostles, and prophets and evangelists and shepherds and teachers.
  • He loves his church so much that he gave us his Word, to know him, to follow him, and to find life.


I don't believe for a second you actually want the answer to these questions that you claim to be "brave" by asking. I've seen no desire to learn from you.

The issue is that you think this all-powerful God would do things according to you. And because he does not cow-tow to YOUR demands, he does not exist. Sorry. Doesn't work that way. He's God, you're not.

He does care, but he's also just. And he will punish evil.

I can answer any of the supposedly "hard" questions you ask. But I rarely read your posts because all you really seem to want to do is mock and attack.
1. Since he was all-powerful, he could have accomplished everything without suffering and dying on the cross. But we wouldn't want to take away your Cecil B. DeMillish spectacle.

2. The rest...all man-made.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-16-2024, 11:33 AM
Status: "My worldview is based on the inerrant word of God." (set 23 days ago)
 
18,695 posts, read 6,803,712 times
Reputation: 3517
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
1. Since he was all-powerful, he could have accomplished everything without suffering and dying on the cross. But we wouldn't want to take away your Cecil B. DeMillish spectacle.
Yes, but then he'd be unjust.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-16-2024, 12:25 PM
 
18,183 posts, read 16,747,601 times
Reputation: 7416
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
  • He loves the world so much that he became man, suffered and died on the cross.
  • He loves humanity so much that he will change the heart of a sinner, and grant them faith to trust in what he did.
  • He loves his believers so much that he gives them the church. He gave us apostles, and prophets and evangelists and shepherds and teachers.
  • He loves his church so much that he gave us his Word, to know him, to follow him, and to find life.


I don't believe for a second you actually want the answer to these questions that you claim to be "brave" by asking. I've seen no desire to learn from you.

The issue is that you think this all-powerful God would do things according to you. And because he does not cow-tow to YOUR demands, he does not exist. Sorry. Doesn't work that way. He's God, you're not.

He does care, but he's also just. And he will punish evil.

I can answer any of the supposedly "hard" questions you ask. But I rarely read your posts because all you really seem to want to do is mock and attack.

This is all just pure speculation and your own personal beliefs that you cannot support with anything outside the Bible, a book secular scholars have labeled "unreliable" as a historical source.



"The Bible is not a reliable historical source because it does not meet the standard criteria of source reliability used by historians. The Bible is not, as many believers assume, eye witness testimony. Reliable sources are generally based on authors who were eye witnesses to an event (i.e. it is a primary source). Since any particular source may be fabricating their story, multiple independent sources are usually required for confidence. Establishing the lack of author biases, including religious motivations, is also necessary if a work is to be read at face value. The Bible satisfies none of these requirements"


https://religions.wiki/index.php/The...torical_source


Quote:
  • He loves the world so much that he became man, suffered and died on the cross.
  • He loves humanity so much that he will change the heart of a sinner, and grant them faith to trust in what he did.
  • He loves his believers so much that he gives them the church. He gave us apostles, and prophets and evangelists and shepherds and teachers.
  • He loves his church so much that he gave us his Word, to know him, to follow him, and to find life.

What's your evidence for any of this outside the Bible? Or are you just quoting your own Christian biases?


Do you disagree that if God really did want to save man he has the power to perform one gigantic miracle that would bring about salvation for all?



If God loves mankind so much that he could redeem all of us with one simple miracle, then why doesn't he?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-16-2024, 12:45 PM
 
2,279 posts, read 1,387,601 times
Reputation: 453
God has His own will. He doesn't have to announce Jesus to the world in the way you might want Him to. He's not like us who are power hungry, and just want to show off. He chose to do it through those who believe on His name. He chose to work through humanity.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-16-2024, 12:54 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,119 posts, read 23,785,288 times
Reputation: 32519
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post
God has His own will. He doesn't have to announce Jesus to the world in the way you might want Him to. He's not like us who are power hungry, and just want to show off. He chose to do it through those who believe on His name. He chose to work through humanity.
The fables of the bible are about as 'show offy' as you can get.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-16-2024, 01:23 PM
Status: "My worldview is based on the inerrant word of God." (set 23 days ago)
 
18,695 posts, read 6,803,712 times
Reputation: 3517
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
This is all just pure speculation and your own personal beliefs that you cannot support with anything outside the Bible, a book secular scholars have labeled "unreliable" as a historical source.
They're literally in the bible.
Quote:


"The Bible is not a reliable historical source because it does not meet the standard criteria of source reliability used by historians. The Bible is not, as many believers assume,


I'm going to say this as gently as I possibly can. Your opinion on this does not establish fact. The Bible is certainly a reliable historical source. It's been verified in many different ways.
Quote:
eye witness testimony. Reliable sources are generally based on authors who were eye witnesses to an event (i.e. it is a primary source). Since any particular source may be fabricating their story, multiple independent sources are usually required for confidence. Establishing the lack of author biases, including religious motivations, is also necessary if a work is to be read at face value. The Bible satisfies none of these requirements"
Quote:
There were 4 different Gospel writers who were all eyewitnesses. The letters of the NT were eyewitnesses. The OT was written by men who lived through the events recorded. The church began shortly after, and has existed for 2000 years. The apostles gave their lives for it.

This stuff just goes on and on.
Quote:

What's your evidence for any of this outside the Bible? Or are you just quoting your own Christian biases?
The Bible is a source. You may not like it, but that doesn't mean it isn't. You dismiss it because you prejudge it.

That said, the Bible is verified by archaeology, and other extra-Biblical sources.


Quote:

Do you disagree that if God really did want to save man he has the power to perform one gigantic miracle that would bring about salvation for all?

Yes. God saved me.
Quote:

If God loves mankind so much that he could redeem all of us with one simple miracle, then why doesn't he?
Because he does not want to. He will judge sin. And again, I'm sorry if that bothers you. But your opinion of this does not establish fact.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-16-2024, 01:33 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,119 posts, read 23,785,288 times
Reputation: 32519
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
They're literally in the bible.

I'm going to say this as gently as I possibly can. Your opinion on this does not establish fact. The Bible is certainly a reliable historical source. It's been verified in many different ways.

There were 4 different Gospel writers who were all eyewitnesses. The letters of the NT were eyewitnesses. The OT was written by men who lived through the events recorded. The church began shortly after, and has existed for 2000 years. The apostles gave their lives for it.

This stuff just goes on and on.


The Bible is a source. You may not like it, but that doesn't mean it isn't. You dismiss it because you prejudge it.

That said, the Bible is verified by archaeology, and other extra-Biblical sources.



Yes. God saved me.


Because he does not want to. He will judge sin. And again, I'm sorry if that bothers you. But your opinion of this does not establish fact.
Do you realize that non-believers or other-believers don't recognize the bible as an historical record? And no, the "Bible is [NOT] verified by archaeology", although a few things in the bible have been verified.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top