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Old 06-09-2024, 07:14 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
20,351 posts, read 13,743,832 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
If we take away religion and there is still war and violence, then religion is not the cause of war and violence.
No, if there is still war and violence with religion taken away, then there are two entirely plausible explanations, assuming that we had no other data: as you suggest, religion wasn't the cause, or, religion is only one of several contributing causes. Since we have ample, copious, massive amounts of evidence that religions cause conflict with other religions, then your thought experiment about removing religion is a failure as both a thought experiment and as a metaphor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
The only other factor that is present always in every war and violent acts is people. People cause war and violence .
Religion claims to inspire people to be better, and so must be held to a higher standard than people. It promotes an allegedly superior morality and so must live up to its own vaunted principles that it demands people follow. It is hugely influential in human affairs and therefore has great responsibility in connection with that.

To be clear, I am not claiming (and so far as I know, no one is claiming) that individuals have zero responsibility in such matters. But your constant attempts to totally absolve religion and giving it a free pass deflects from a real problem that needs to be addressed by religious leadership and religious thought leaders.

Why do you have this need to absolve religion? It's not like it would have to be religion's undoing. It would actually strengthen it if it would take some responsibility to tackle this failing. It would also benefit the members of religions that would start to substantively address the divisiveness they engender.
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Old 06-09-2024, 08:03 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,572 posts, read 24,927,287 times
Reputation: 33348
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
...

To be clear, I am not claiming (and so far as I know, no one is claiming) that individuals have zero responsibility in such matters. But your constant attempts to totally absolve religion and giving it a free pass deflects from a real problem that needs to be addressed by religious leadership and religious thought leaders.

Why do you have this need to absolve religion? It's not like it would have to be religion's undoing. It would actually strengthen it if it would take some responsibility to tackle this failing. It would also benefit the members of religions that would start to substantively address the divisiveness they engender.
That was my point, as well in post #40.
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Old 06-09-2024, 09:23 PM
 
16,362 posts, read 7,273,917 times
Reputation: 8792
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
No, if there is still war and violence with religion taken away, then there are two entirely plausible explanations, assuming that we had no other data: as you suggest, religion wasn't the cause, or, religion is only one of several contributing causes. Since we have ample, copious, massive amounts of evidence that religions cause conflict with other religions, then your thought experiment about removing religion is a failure as both a thought experiment and as a metaphor.

Religion claims to inspire people to be better, and so must be held to a higher standard than people. It promotes an allegedly superior morality and so must live up to its own vaunted principles that it demands people follow. It is hugely influential in human affairs and therefore has great responsibility in connection with that.

To be clear, I am not claiming (and so far as I know, no one is claiming) that individuals have zero responsibility in such matters. But your constant attempts to totally absolve religion and giving it a free pass deflects from a real problem that needs to be addressed by religious leadership and religious thought leaders.

Why do you have this need to absolve religion? It's not like it would have to be religion's undoing. It would actually strengthen it if it would take some responsibility to tackle this failing. It would also benefit the members of religions that would start to substantively address the divisiveness they engender.
That is a very strange question. If I said I have no such need would you believe me? Why are YOU so bothered that I have an opinion and a conclusion I have arrived at based on what i have observed, read, and experienced? I am entitled to my opinion as you are to yours. I dont see any way to prove religion cause wars. My thought experiment is actually quite solid.
Blaming a man made construct like religion as cause for wars just does not make sense to me. Particularly when several other good solid reasons that are so glaringly present that actually cause wars. I have enumerated them in other posts so i wont repeat them, and i am sure you know them as well.
Religion does not claim to inspire people. People are inspired by what they learn from religious texts and the teachings.
You endow religion with powers that it simply does not have in my experience. All it can do is show the way to lead a life of goodness, and how it can be good for you and the world. After that it is up to you how you understand what you read, how you practice what you learn, and how you conduct your life based on those teachings. The teaching have had tremendously positive effects on people who needed that help. It is always about the people. It has inspired people to do great things, to transform their lives and the lives of others. And others to just lead a good life.
If it is not for you, fine you should not practice any religion. May be if we have more atheists we will have no wars, who knows.
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Old 06-09-2024, 10:01 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,572 posts, read 24,927,287 times
Reputation: 33348
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
That is a very strange question. If I said I have no such need would you believe me? Why are YOU so bothered that I have an opinion and a conclusion I have arrived at based on what i have observed, read, and experienced? I am entitled to my opinion as you are to yours. I dont see any way to prove religion cause wars. My thought experiment is actually quite solid.
Blaming a man made construct like religion as cause for wars just does not make sense to me. Particularly when several other good solid reasons that are so glaringly present that actually cause wars. I have enumerated them in other posts so i wont repeat them, and i am sure you know them as well.
Religion does not claim to inspire people. People are inspired by what they learn from religious texts and the teachings.
You endow religion with powers that it simply does not have in my experience. All it can do is show the way to lead a life of goodness, and how it can be good for you and the world. After that it is up to you how you understand what you read, how you practice what you learn, and how you conduct your life based on those teachings. The teaching have had tremendously positive effects on people who needed that help. It is always about the people. It has inspired people to do great things, to transform their lives and the lives of others. And others to just lead a good life.
If it is not for you, fine you should not practice any religion. May be if we have more atheists we will have no wars, who knows.
Wait a minute now -- "a manmade construct like religion".

You do realize that most christians believe christianity was given to us by Jesus (therefore god).

I don't know the answer to this...was Hinduism not inspired by gods?

hmmmmmmm
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Old 06-10-2024, 06:07 AM
 
Location: Elsewhere
89,139 posts, read 85,814,366 times
Reputation: 116122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_n_Tenn View Post
I judge by the evidence and their Qur'an. "Allah the Exalted encourages the believers to fight the polytheists, disbelieving Jews and Christians, who uttered this terrible statement [mentioned in Q9:30] and utter lies against Allah, the Exalted."

See the Middle East for reference and study the Isis Caliphate. Do the Islamists in Gaza and many areas of the Middle east openly espouse the Genocide of anther race and those that support them? Death to America isn't a sales pitch unless you're recruiting terrorists. I want to make it clear, Muslims are not the problem, but Islam is.

Religions who allow/justify self defense use the three pillars as a template... truth, faith and history. Each of these also stand upon three pillars.
I think a better way to state it is that the interpretation of Islam is what encourages war. I work for Muslims and know quite a few in the NYC engineering community, and they are more interested in building things and making money--and cricket--than they are in war.

Read The Looming Tower, and if you're not a reader, at least watch the ten-part Hulu series. One of the most powerful scenes is completely in Arabic, when devout Muslim FBI agent Ali Soufan confronts Abu Jandal, Osama Bin Laden's bodyguard, with a copy of the Q'uran and demonstrates to him that the Q'uran does not say what he has been told it says.

Those who want war will use the scriptures of their followers for their purpose.

I wish Woodrow LI, our Muslim convert moderator, was still on the planet to join in this conversation.

LOL, see Exhibit A above.
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Last edited by Mightyqueen801; 06-10-2024 at 06:52 AM..
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Old 06-10-2024, 06:54 AM
 
16,362 posts, read 7,273,917 times
Reputation: 8792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
I think a better way to state it is that the interpretation of Islam is what encourages war. I work for Muslims and know quite a few in the NYC engineering community, and they are more interested in building things and making money--and cricket--than they are in war.

Read The Looming Tower, and if you're not a reader, at least watch the ten-part Hulu series. One of the most powerful scenes is completely in Arabic, when devout Muslim FBI agent Ali Soufan confronts Abu Jandal, Osama Bin Laden's bodyguard, with a copy of the Q'uran and demonstrates to him that the Q'uran does not say what he has been told it says.

Those who want war will use the scriptures of their followers for their purpose.

I wish Woodrow Li, our Muslim convert moderator, was still on the planet to join in this conversation.

LOL, see Exhibit A above.
Great post, MQ, and well said. After 9/11 Americans became “expert scholars” of the Quran and lectured to each other about Jihad on TV, radio, on forums like this.
I grew up studying and playing with Muslim friends. My mother’s doctor was a Muslim man. My father had Muslim colleagues who visited us at home. We cheered for Muslim cricket players, beloved musicians, actors and artists. The little i know of Islam’s religious texts, spoke of mercy, kindness, and generosity. They are just like us!
Some times our perception of people is formed by what we want to see in them, and that may be a reflection of our own emotions. It is not truth or facts, but projection.
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Old 06-10-2024, 07:20 AM
 
Location: Oklahoma
17,987 posts, read 13,963,271 times
Reputation: 18101
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
I dont see any way to prove religion cause wars.
Blaming a man made construct like religion as cause for wars just does not make sense to me. Particularly when several other good solid reasons that are so glaringly present that actually cause wars. I have enumerated them in other posts so i wont repeat them, and i am sure you know them as well.
So when the expressed reason for a "war" is based on religion. Say... the Crusades or the 30 Years war...

You don't believe those wars were actually caused by religious differences... but rather something else.

Now Dave in Tennessee claims that the something else is "masquerading" as an excuse for war...

And then wants to claim Occam's razor?

In the case of the 30 Years War... It was caused by Catholic leaders imposing Catholicism on a bunch of Protestants who didn't want to practice Catholicism... That is war caused by Religion. I'm not sure how much more Occam's razory you can get there.
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Old 06-10-2024, 07:38 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,572 posts, read 24,927,287 times
Reputation: 33348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aed-Marwan View Post
La Illaha Ila Allah, Audhu Billahi Mina saytani Rajim, God is the Most Great, God Witnesses that none has the right to be worshipped except Him, the birds and everything in the heavens and the earth and everything in between them praise God, God is the King and Protector and Lord and Light and Ruler and Controller of the heavens and the earth and everything in them!
---------
Islam's spreading from Saudi-Arabia to the Muslim lands of today, by force (war) or by willful submission, was supported by God, so was supported His Messenger Prophet Muhammad peace and blessings be upon him and his family against the pagan Arabs.

That's because Islam is God's Right Religion and because The Glorious Quran is from God (Certainly).

War had to be exercised for the spreading of Islam (as much as God wanted), so Islam could exercise it's porpouse on man (spiritually and otherwise).

Islam will overtake Christianity soon (certainly) and be the highest religion in adherents.

God is Alive.
You sound like a war monger.
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Old 06-10-2024, 07:48 AM
 
Location: Texas
221 posts, read 54,356 times
Reputation: 96
The people who sit and discuss these things, passing judgment on everyone beneath them. THIS is the reason we will always have wars.
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Old 06-10-2024, 07:53 AM
 
19,265 posts, read 27,956,832 times
Reputation: 20353
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddie gein View Post
So when the expressed reason for a "war" is based on religion. Say... the Crusades or the 30 Years war...

You don't believe those wars were actually caused by religious differences... but rather something else.

Now Dave in Tennessee claims that the something else is "masquerading" as an excuse for war...

And then wants to claim Occam's razor?

In the case of the 30 Years War... It was caused by Catholic leaders imposing Catholicism on a bunch of Protestants who didn't want to practice Catholicism... That is war caused by Religion. I'm not sure how much more Occam's razory you can get there.
Depends, who you listen to of your choice. You listen to textbooks.
If you listen to political economy founders, wars ALWAYS are run for economical reasons. ALWAYS. Masqueraded as ............... fill the blank.


But then here we start F&F falling into politics, big no-no in R&S.
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