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Funnily enough I do rather believe that. My beliefs aren't conventional and as a child people would say God created the world and I'd say "out of what?" Finally one day I realized I had an answer. Out of himself. So I have no problem with the idea that the energy in the universe has always existed. I would simply say that it has always existed as a part of the divine force out of which also emanates the consciousness or what have you that I call God. Of course I'm guessing that what you're getting at is why I need God to explain the forces in the universe at all. To that I would say I don't. From a scientific standpoint there is no requirement for a god to exist. But that doesn't change my conviction that God does exist. I didn't gain my faith because I was trying to fill in holes left by science. I gained my faith because it filled in a hole I found in my life.
So what you are saying is that your god set off the big bang?
So what you are saying is that your god set off the big bang?
Could be. I'm not a biblical literalist and by no means a creationist. I think God created the world and would technically control it but I am rather persuaded of the natural phenomena approach, that God works within the laws of the universe. He created them, after all. When I'm not being fascinated by the Bible I'm often fascinated by evolution, especially the history of human evolution. It amazes me some of the discoveries that have been made.
"We don't know, it may be beyond our comprehension at this point, and we may never be able to know the real answer for certain at any rate."
If one is able to accept that statement as the answer to the question, "where did God come from?", then they should also be able to accept it as an answer to the question, "where did the universe come from?"
Because it doesn't really help anything to say "logic tells us that the universe couldn't have always existed, so there must be a God..... who always existed."
Whatever rules of logic one constructs for investigating the origins of the Universe also apply to the origins of God. If logic tells us nothing comes into existence on its own, then that applies to a God, and the God who created him, and the God that created him. If logic tells you that it is possible for a God to have always existed, then that same logic should tell you that it was possible for the energy and the matter in the Universe to have always existed.
Could be. I'm not a biblical literalist and by no means a creationist. I think God created the world and would technically control it but I am rather persuaded of the natural phenomena approach, that God works within the laws of the universe. He created them, after all. When I'm not being fascinated by the Bible I'm often fascinated by evolution, especially the history of human evolution. It amazes me some of the discoveries that have been made.
Well as long as you are not claiming a bunch of things about your god, without physical evidence and reasoned logic.
Your use of the term 'believe' is key. This seems to infer a certain religious aspect to your viewpoint.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill
Its a fundamental principle of classical physics that matter and energy can change forms, but they can never be created or destroyed. This is called the Law of conservation of matter and energy.
Is this referencing a 'closed system' or an 'open system?'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill
So instead I think science informs us that energy and matter are infinite rather than finite, they only change forms back and forth.
"So instead I think..."
Interesting choice of words.
Let's not jump to conclusions. First, please explain under what conditions the back and forth occurs and whether or not the known universe would fall into or meet this existing conditions example.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill
So rather than say "everything observable is finite", the truth is that the principles of conservation say that everything observable is infinite, although changing in form."
Are you arguing for a 'steady state' universe?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill
As mentioned above, science suggest that the matter and energy in the universe always existed, because the principle of conservation states that it is impossible to make more of it or destroy it. You can convert Mass into energy, or energy into mass (at a ratio of E=MC2), but the sum of the energy and mass are constant and infinite.
Again, under what conditions?
We also have the 2nd Law of thermodynamics.
We also have this thing called 'friction.'
What is energy? Don't tell me about what it compares to or what it does, tell me what it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill
So the question is, do you believe in the law of conservation of energy and mass? Because if you do, then you believe that the mass and the energy in universe must necessarily have always existed.
I believe that my aforementioned responses illustrate the absurdity of this assertion.
You assert a false dilemma. Well, why not go ahead and turn us on to the other choices.
I'm not buying your sophistry.
No, you are buying your preconceived bigotry and what you have been told by others of your ilk.
You assert a false statement to be true and cannot stand to be contradicted. Your either/or argument falls flat on its face. IE, in the past it would be either "Zeus" did it or "Apollo" did it. Come to find out a natural action did it.
There are always choices. Of course for you, your only choice is to do what your masters tell you, allowing for no new information to effect what you "know". Extremely limited way to live. But that is a theist for you.
well, it was a mistake, Abraham was writing about this truly wonderful dog he had, but, ole Abe was dyslexic. Bummer, that dog never got the respect he deserved.
Science informs us that everything observable is finite. Birth and death. Beginning and ending. This would include the universe.
We know that we exist. We know that nothing observable is finite.
Now:
0 + 0 = 0
Zero plus zero equals zero. Seems logical, does it not?
SomethingMUST therefore be infinite. Whatever that something is, would quite logically, appear to be an entity that is beyond our ability to observe in the empirical sense.
My assertion is that the aforementioned invisible entity is - God.
Wait what? Using a variation of a mathematical axiom to make a claim about reality are just 2 baseless assertions disguised as something else. The question is just as banal as saying that either god exists or you are logically a pedophile.
I suppose now you will start bombarding me with non-sequitirs , snide remarks and misinterpretations of science.
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