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If we take opposites into concideration...as we all know there are opposites to just about everything...If the universe we are in is finite...then there has to be another of simular value in a opposite formate = infinate...for in this we know the seen, and the unseen...the begining and the end...the death, and the life...the right and the left...etc
And in knowing we are born in death (finite) if we live a good respectable life onto the lord God, and uphold his laws, precepts, and covenants to the letter and every word...then we can achieve what Jesus was talking about...the paradise..the EDEN...and returning to the Father...in Eden..
As it is in the Genesis...where God sends both Adam and Eve out of Eden (eternity, tame), into Death (finite, Wild)....and all they had to do is restore a plant to its rightful place, repent for their disobediance, and God would have forgiven them...But they didn't, and they had children in Death, and they continued to sin.....Jesus was sent to get us out of it...follow me he said..
b. The existence of God cannot be disproven, either.
c. The only thing that can be proven is that mankind had made many gods in their own image, thousands of years prior to the introduction of monotheism as a concept.
As it is in the Genesis...where God sends both Adam and Eve out of Eden (eternity, tame), into Death (finite, Wild)....and all they had to do is restore a plant to its rightful place, repent for their disobediance, and God would have forgiven them...But they didn't, and they had children in Death, and they continued to sin....
Except that the tale of the Garden of Eden was not literal. It originated as a Sumerian folk tale to contrast mankind's evolving from nomadic hunter/gatherers, to that of agrarian societies just before the Primeval period. With the advent of agriculture meant increased food supplies; and with it, large increases of populations in concentrated areas. To maintain crops meant that you had to stay in one place. For mutual protection, this is when mankind started building villages, and eventually fortified cities. The tradition of Eden was a "paradise lost" tale meant to contrast the free-wandering life of hunter/gathers, with that of the immobile agrarian societies who were held "slave" to the land. Even the tale of Cain and Abel expands on this theme.
I assume your opening quote is in reference to my post, so I'll respond.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leisesturm
"He has always existed... ..." That's it? Nice and neat just like that? I know five year olds that wouldn't be satisfied with an obvious cop-out like that.
It's hardly a cop-out. There's a lot behind it. I'm going to be brief here (it's 2:05 AM, and I'm tired). Think of Aristotle's Unmoved Mover. Think of Aquinas's First Cause (very similar to Aristotle). Think of Anselm's ontological argument (or Leibniz's version, or Goedel's version, or Plantinga's version). Think of the explanation for possibility itself. Think of the ground of being itself, and the ground of all the moral and logical laws of existence. These all point to a logical and metaphysical need for something necessary in existence, something that necessarily exists and can serve as the ultimate ground for all facets of existence. Conceptually speaking, this is God. God is conceived of in Christianity as a necessary being. A necessary being is a being that does not merely pop into existence--for this would mean it is a being like any other being: finite, contingent, depends upon other things for its existence. This is not the God of Christianity. God is a necessary being. And so, I say again, if God exists, then God has always existed.
I think I will ignore what remains of your diatribe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leisesturm
I can accept an adult saying "I don't know". I certainly don't. LIFE is the big mystery. God is much less of a mystery. I find it quite irrelevant how, where or why God poofed into or out of being because he stopped being relevant a very long time ago. All this skulking around, impregnating Virgins and growing out Savior's that speak in psycho babble and Crucifixions that are meant to Save us but not really because we have to Believe and Obey the Commandments or we still could wind up frying for a really, really long time... ... I've heard of truth being stranger than fiction but really... you insult the memory of that which gave us LIFE by characterizing it in such an Anthropormorphic manner.
You know, I'm betting my soul that when the END comes. Me and the other Agnostics are going to get kudo's from whoever or whatever put life on this Earth. Why? Because anything with the power to create life could get our attention in no uncertain terms. Intelligent entities do not play mind games and semantic riddles with adults. To fly in the face of the bucketloads of belief most humans are raised with and calmly, rationally, consider that Traditional Christianity and Beliefs of all kinds are badly flawed are proof of a superior mind. That we have no PROOF of God is evidence that He has no need for us to be very concerned with his whereabouts. The Bible is not proof of anything. It is a book. The lake of fire is reserved for those who were too cowardly to examine the fossil record and the evidence trail of scientific research and blindly clung to a 4th Century appraisal of the state of things.
To be fair to the atheist side, all ontological arguments, from Anselm's to Plantinga's, asserting the existence of God remain question-begging in their axioms. To be fair to theism, no atheist ontological arguments can achieve anything more than skepticism toward the argument, never any categorical assertions to the negative. Ontologically, atheism can only be agnostic.
In fact, there was another thread posting a youtube video that seemed to me an atheist answer to Anselm and Plantinga, but suffered from their arguments' equal and opposite weakness--"...that greater than which can be imagined [or somesuch wording]" vs. human cognition of "that greater than which...", which is also as circular around its axioms about what humans can be cognate. Two trains traveling in opposite directions, each with equal weakness so neither can derail the other. (As an aside, so many threads open! So many of them actually interrelated!)
To the OP, yes, theists take God's eternal pre-existence as axiomatic, self-affirmed but, yes again, unprovable. It's not some convenience, but rather a stand on a position in order to move forward. Persistent skepticism is ultimately fruitless from groundlessness. To the issue of the Big Bang..."something" out of "nothing"...how is that anything but magical thinking? Something out of something-as-yet-undefined...how is that so firm a position?
To be fair to the atheist side, all ontological arguments, from Anselm's to Plantinga's, asserting the existence of God remain question-begging in their axioms.
I actually wasn't bringing up the ontological argument for the purposes of arguing that God exists. I was only trying to show (1) that there is a long tradition claiming that God is a necessary being, and (2) this tradition isn't simply a "cop-out", but has strong arguments behind it. Whether or not these arguments successfully prove God's existence is another issue, since we're only dealing now with the concept of God. In other words, my point is that, conceptually speaking, God is traditionally claimed to be a necessary being, because He is the First Cause, He is the ground of being, and necessary existence is part of His very nature. (Maybe my point was already obvious to you, though--I'm still tired....why did I stay up so late??)
I'm actually pretty fond of the ontological argument. I think it's profound. I'm not sure if they are all question-begging, or even if they are, if this is a bad thing (depending on what you mean by "question-begging). I tend to agree with Plantinga, that the ontological argument is sound, but we can't prove its soundness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunjee
To the OP, yes, theists take God's eternal pre-existence as axiomatic, self-affirmed but, yes again, unprovable. It's not some convenience, but rather a stand on a position in order to move forward. Persistent skepticism is ultimately fruitless from groundlessness. To the issue of the Big Bang..."something" out of "nothing"...how is that anything but magical thinking? Something out of something-as-yet-undefined...how is that so firm a position?
I'm actually pretty fond of the ontological argument. I think it's profound. I'm not sure if they are all question-begging, or even if they are, if this is a bad thing (depending on what you mean by "question-begging). I tend to agree with Plantinga, that the ontological argument is sound, but we can't prove its soundness.
It is profound. I only expanded on your point to myself address the flimsy dismissal of God's eternal existence as a "cop-out" as well, which is petulant and has no place in a discussion whose purpose is discovery. It has no effect on ontology's profundity but to offer a bit of spittle. But this is an agreeable disagreement as I granted. (And I still don't think Plantinga's modal logic enhancements of Anselm's argument strengthen it, except for believers, and that's of course the issue.)
My main point, really, is that as a matter of choice between two conclusions, I choose belief over skepticism. Why? (It's certainly personal; how could it be otherwise?): Because the other choice can only be agnosticism, not atheism. The atheist does have the logical burden of ontological proof, to prove he/she can dismiss all possibilities in all realms in all dimensions...in other words, prove his/her omniscience to disprove God. Tricky paradox. Personally, from belief comes a firm ground as you term it, where I can grow a cosmology to live by, as opposed to nomadic skepticism that must toss every unproved proverbial apple aside--irony intended . If that's all where God comes from then it's still worth it.
Last edited by Bunjee; 12-31-2009 at 02:25 PM..
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. If that's all where God comes from then it's still worth it.
