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Can I ask a question and get an honest answer from those who disagree with me?
If you believed like I do, that homosexuality is not God's plan for men or women, that it is sin against God (not unlike other sins against God), that many homosexuals reject Jesus as Lord of their lives, and that Jesus is homosexuals (just like any other person) only hope, would you just "leave homosexuals alone"? Would you consider it a loving thing to do to not tell someone what you believe to be the truth, truth that is matters for their eternal destiny?
For those who disagree with my view, which is almost all of you, can you step outside your little world and recognize my motives for discussing this have absolutely nothing to do with anti-gayness or homophobia? Can you at least see, from my perspective, it is the right thing to do? If you cannot see that, don't even debate with me, because you have not even begun to understand my position, and all you are doing is arguing against a caricature of my view...
I understand your point of view. But it's like someone from some other religion, let's say Hindu just for the sake of argument, telling me that being gay is wrong, I'm going to suffer for it in an afterlife, and I need to conform to their beliefs. It doesn't matter to me because I don't believe it.
You're certainly free to tell me whatever you want to and express your beliefs. But when Christians think they're "helping" gay people by passing laws to discriminate against them, I believe that crosses the line and that's where all the animosity begins between both sides.
What I meant what that the debate is ultimately over what marriage is. Yes, we can debate whether homosexuality is a choice, but that still goes back to God's design in creation. So yes, the debate in this thread is over whether homosexuality is a choice. I think ultimately, although there may be factors that lead one to be a homosexual, it is still a choice whether or not you follow your desires. I may have all sorts of desires to do all sort of things, but that does not necessitate that I must follow my desires. To say it does simply justifies any and every evil thing someone may decide to do, and you lose all moral responsibility for any action you perform. One may just say, "It was my desire to do this; I was born with this desire; therefore, I won't be happy unless I do it." I do not see that as grounds to justify your actions...
Can I ask a question and get an honest answer from those who disagree with me?
If you believed like I do, that homosexuality is not God's plan for men or women, that it is sin against God (not unlike other sins against God), that many homosexuals reject Jesus as Lord of their lives, and that Jesus is homosexuals (just like any other person) only hope, would you just "leave homosexuals alone"? Would you consider it a loving thing to do to not tell someone what you believe to be the truth, truth that is matters for their eternal destiny?
For those who disagree with my view, which is almost all of you, can you step outside your little world and recognize my motives for discussing this have absolutely nothing to do with anti-gayness or homophobia? Can you at least see, from my perspective, it is the right thing to do? If you cannot see that, don't even debate with me, because you have not even begun to understand my position, and all you are doing is arguing against a caricature of my view...
Were I a follower of the Christ who was particularly arrogant and aggressive in my belief that I knew everything there is to know about How To Be A Perfect Christian, I might do the same thing.
Here's a reframe for you, in return:
Suppose a Gypsy fortune teller came to you and told you that your wife, whom you loved deeply and who (you had every reason to believe) loved you, was going to stab you repeatedly with a meat fork? Clearly she believes it-- her tarot cards told her it was likely to happen, after all. (Now mind you, there are other Gypsies in the neighborhood who have already told you that what she's seen in her cards is not necessarily a universal interpretation, even amongst those who believe in such things.)
Would you honestly say "oh, well, then, must be true, because after all, her cards told her so!" and ditch your wife?
The difference between me and other religions is that I do not think for a second that I can change your mind. If God does not convict you and change your mind, it will not happen. You may resist his conviction and ultimately reject Jesus Christ, and you will be held responsible for that. That is not because you might be gay; God will hold every single person responsible for their actions, including myself, which makes it even more incumbent upon me to tell you the truth, because I ultimately answer to God, not you.
The imperfections in all of us are because we are all sinful. We can choose to act on them or not. To give into tendencies that we know to be wrong, for bible readers, would be a sin. If you don't believe in God or the bible-then you have nothing to worry about.
Other than bigoted Christians who try to legislate their own morality, anyway.
Were I a follower of the Christ who was particularly arrogant and aggressive in my belief that I knew everything there is to know about How To Be A Perfect Christian, I might do the same thing.
I am not even going to answer you, simply because you did exactly what I said. I am "arrogant" and "know everything" because I state my views, which are different from your views. There is no point in even talking if you are going to result in ad hominem arguments against my view.
I do not know everything; I know very little. I am not the Christian that I should be. I have my own personal struggles. I am a hypocrite too often. You should know that though, since you obviously know my character.
Someone PLEASE explain to me the comments that were made above to me are not screaming "judgmental and intolerant"???
As I said living a gay lifestyle is a choice. Nobody argues that but many people believe that if you are gay, regardless how you live your life, that its a sin and you are going to hell. It interesting because it also says in the Bible that we should not eat pork and that its ok to have slaves.
Incorrect.
I am a straight male. I never came to any fork in the road, period of indecision or confusion. Even when I was a little kid i.e. "girls have cuties" phase, I had crushes on females.
There is no choice. I do not pretend to know what causes someone to be gay, but I do know that he or she has no choice in the matter. If there was, why would people elect to be in a minority that still deals with a lot of antipathy around the world?
Homosexuality continues to have a lot of questions but we could all do ourselves a favor by getting over this idiotic notion that people choose it or can be converted.
Do not act as if we are not to judge a personal's moral behavior, and then proceed to quote the Bible. Read the NT. You know people's character by their fruits. The NT repeatedly teaches the discernment of a personal's spiritual state by the outward lifestyle they are living. There is a difference between "judging" and being "judgmental." Every one judges persons and views. You have to be lacking a brain in order to not judge things that you encounter.
How about this one:
Matthew 7:3-5
3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
I believe that religious people, or any person with a certain belief system get so hung up on other people and do not keep their own house in order. First, you check yourself, you watch yourself and you make sure everything in your life is as it should be.
I have yet to meet one person who is doing everything perfectly. We all have room for improvement. Before I even think about making value judgements on anyone else's life or "lifestyle" I must be blameless and pure. That has never and will never happen, so I don't try to poke my nose into other people's business.
I think that you have made your point clear. You should move on, all you can do is share your opinion and if others choose to listen to you, then that's great, if they don't, then that is great too and it is their decision. Don't bang your head against the wall anymore. I think everyone knows how you feel.
It is also rediculous how people say homosexuals are sinning because they have sex outside of marriage, but when they try to have the legal right to get married, it isn't recognized by the church. That is rediculous!! They just can't win!!!
This thread is about whether a person is born homosexual or with homosexual tendencies. It is not called "Please try to convince me that my life choices are going to send me to hell".
I'm sure they have all heard your argument a million times and are pretty sick of hearing it. Whether or not it is directly from you, I'm sure they've heard it.
I am quite aware of Matt. 7. Jesus does not say that we will never be able to "remove the speck from our brother's eye." You must read that into the text. In other words, Jesus tells us to judge ourselves first. He does NOT say we should never judge anyone's behavior or views.
Jesus himself speaks of false teachers, saying we will know them by their fruits. How are we to know the false from the true teachers if we are not judging and discerning what they are teaching and the fruit of their lives? Jesus obviously assumes we will judge persons and views.
Well, obviously you are above reproach and have the ultimate knowledge of the correct interpretation of the Bible. You must have cornered that market. Judging whether or not someone's actions are going to send them to hell is not the type of judgement we are supposed to have. Judgement of a person's character such as, is this person stealing from me? Does this person have a tendency to violently attack orther people? That is character judgement. Not "who does this person sleep with when they go to bed at night?"
And you failed to answer the marriage part of my statement.
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That is rediculous!! They just can't win!!!