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Old 08-01-2008, 11:38 AM
 
7,628 posts, read 10,974,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluepacific View Post
Use any one you wish Campbell. I'm using New Jerusalem at the moment and there are several others. Just choose responsibly. Aside from translations, I don't even mind a few Versions if they are'nt coloured and prejudiced by any ones particular Dogma.

Look back at the link i posted sometime earlier to North Carolina, it's got numerous ones side by side.

Well according to my source and I will post their link here. The Jerusalem Bible has been criticized in the past for undisciplined and capricious treatment of the Old Testament. The New Jerusalem Bible has corrected some of that, yet it is said that the reader cannot trust the translation to represent a scholarly consensus in matters of detail, and must be compared with other, less adventurous Bible versions, when used for close study.

The New Jerusalem Bible (1985)
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Old 08-02-2008, 06:33 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
Well according to my source and I will post their link here. The Jerusalem Bible has been criticized in the past for undisciplined and capricious treatment of the Old Testament. The New Jerusalem Bible has corrected some of that, yet it is said that the reader cannot trust the translation to represent a scholarly consensus in matters of detail, and must be compared with other, less adventurous Bible versions, when used for close study.

The New Jerusalem Bible (1985)
Fortunately today we have tons of the oldest manuscripts closest to the originals and ALL are available to any translators for reference use for the creation of an accurate Bible. It's like this, If you were going to become a Counterfeit Money expert, you would'nt need to study every and all counterfeit money that has come down the Pike. You'd only need to study the original and make judgements on all the others as the errors and flaws would be easily identifiable.

Just take your pick and make it a clean one
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Old 08-03-2008, 11:10 PM
 
Location: OKIE-Ville
5,546 posts, read 9,511,946 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluepacific View Post
The contradiction is yours. 1+1+1 = 1 But like I said, you are free to spin it anyway you so choose.
Correction: One Essence (ousia) and Three Persons (hypostasis). Describing the Indescribable with rudimentary mathematics won't get you far in this discussion.
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Old 08-04-2008, 12:02 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Catfish2008 View Post
Correction: One Essence (ousia) and Three Persons (hypostasis). Describing the Indescribable with rudimentary mathematics won't get you far in this discussion.
You wasted all that blather, when in reality you could have used the "Ye Ol'Lame fall back", "It's A Mystery"
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Old 08-04-2008, 08:53 PM
 
Location: OKIE-Ville
5,546 posts, read 9,511,946 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluepacific View Post
You wasted all that blather, when in reality you could have used the "Ye Ol'Lame fall back", "It's A Mystery"
From the flippancy in your post I assume you will not research the Trinitarian concept of the 1 essence (ousia) expressed in three Persons (hypostasis).
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Old 08-04-2008, 09:05 PM
 
Location: U.S.A.
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Was There A Trinity Before The Birth Of Jesus?


Yes
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Old 08-05-2008, 05:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patmos View Post
Was There A Trinity Before The Birth Of Jesus?


Yes
I agree too
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Old 08-05-2008, 07:25 AM
 
2,255 posts, read 5,400,511 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Catfish2008 View Post
From the flippancy in your post I assume you will not research the Trinitarian concept of the 1 essence (ousia) expressed in three Persons (hypostasis).
Okay, seriously now. Here you go Bassman "The Encyclopedia of Religion" - by Mircea Eliade, editor in chief, 1987, Volume 15, page 54.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Encyclopedia of Religion
"Exegetes and theologians are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain the doctrine of Trinity . . . Although the Hebrew Bible depicts God as the Father of Israel and employs personifications of God such as Word (davar), Spirit (ruah), Wisdom (hokhmah), and Presence (shekhinah), it would go beyond the intention and spirit of the Old Testament to correlate these notions with later Trinitarian doctrine."

"Further, exegetes and theologians agree that the New Testament also does not contain an explicit doctrine of Trinity. God the Father is the source of all that is (Pantokrator), and also the father of Jesus Christ; 'Father' is not the title of the first person of the Trinity but a synomym for God.

"In the New Testament there is no reflective consciousness of the metaphysical nature of God ('immanent trinity'), nor does the New Testament contain the technical language of later doctrine ( hypotasis, ousia , substantia , subsistentia , prosöpon , persona ) . . . It is incontestable that the doctrine cannot be established on the scriptural evidence alone".
Wow , how interesting. Here's some more historical facts: The New Encyclopedia Britannica - 15th Edition, 1985, Volume 11, Micropaedia, page 928.
Quote:
Originally Posted by New Encyclopaedia Britannica
"Niether the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament . . .

"The doctrine develope gradually over several centuries and through many controveries . . .

"It was not until the "4th Century" that the distinctiveness of the three and their unity were brought together in a single orthodox doctrine of one essence and three persons"
Now look what the Roman Catholic history book makes in a similiar statement, The New Catholic Encyclopedia - 1967, Volume XIV, page 295.
Quote:
Originally Posted by New Catholic Encyclopedia
"It is difficult, in the second half of the 20th Century to offer a clear, objective and straightforward account of the revelation, doctrinal evolution, and theological claboration of the mystery of the Trinity. Trinitarian discussion, Roman Catholic as well as other, present a somewhat unsteady silloutte. Two things have happened. There is recognition on the part of exegetes and theologians , including a constantly growing number of Roman Catholics, that one should not speak of Trinitarianism in the New Testament without serious qualification. There is also the closely parallel recognition on the part of historians of dogma and systematic theologians that when one does speak of an unqualified Trinitarianism, one has moved from the period of Christain origins to, say, the latest quadrant of the 4th Century. It was only then that what might be called the definite Trintarian dogma 'one God in three persons' became thoroughly assimilated in Christian life and thought"

And later that same Encyclopedia says even more emphatically:

"The formulation 'one God in three persons' was not solidly establish into Christian life and it's profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th Century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there has been nothing even remotely approaching such mentality or perspective" (ibid, page 299)
It's interesting when going back over these references again, because these references also show that what those Apostate Bisops did was introduce the teachings of Plato into the mix and further corrupted Christianity. But that's another discussion.

So what did Jesus mean when he said, "The Father and I are one" ? Why lookie here at this comment by JH Bernard, D.D., states in "A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Gospel According to St John"
Quote:
Originally Posted by J H Bernard
A unity of fellowship, of will, and of purpose between the Father and the Sonis a frequent theme in the Fourth Gospel . . . and it is tersely and powerfully expressed here; but to press the words and to make them indicate identity of 'ousia' (Greek for "substance" , "essence" ), is to introduce thoughts which were not present to the theologians of the first century".
So the teaching that Jesus is coequal and coeternal has no foundation in the inspired scriptures. From start to finish these false Christian theologians of arounf the 4th century borrowed their ideas from Plato.

It's also interesting that your other favourite word 'hypostasis' (for which you are trying to derive the word 'substance') again has nothing to do with the Trinity. The New Jerusalem Bible translates the word as guarantee in it's rendering of Hebrews 11:1 This would seem to be the meaning of 'hypostasis' a word common in ancient papyrus business documents in reference to guarantees placed on the transactions. Paul even used the word when referencing a definition of faith as a sure guarantee of things hoped for. To sum things up, the terms ( Trinity , hypostasis , person , substance , essence ) for which you are trying to use here for your doctrinal dogma, are not taken from the Bible , but invented by philosophers.

Okay, enough of Big Words. Let's talk simple logic. No one dared to answer this earlier.

What was Jesus, Yahweh & the Holy Ghost doing in Marry's tummy for nine months ??? Who was running the earth, our solar system, and indeed the entire Universe while they were all in there for nine months ???

When Jesus was baptized and the Holy ghost came down as a dove, was that dove actually god ??? Why did'nt Jesus want any of the onlookers of his baptism to know that he was God ??? Why did he use Vantriloquism to through is voice off into the clouds and say, "This is my Son and I have approved him" ???

Sir Isaac Newton asked this question: "When Jesus died
(which means that Yahweh & Holy Ghost died as well) who resurrected him/them ???
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Old 08-05-2008, 08:58 AM
 
22 posts, read 55,071 times
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Default Was There A Trinity Before The Birth of Jesus

Let us stay focus on the title of this thread. Some of us are going off topic.
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Old 08-05-2008, 10:27 AM
 
Location: Socialist Republik of Amerika
6,205 posts, read 12,867,479 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeSuSisGoD View Post
Let us stay focus on the title of this thread. Some of us are going off topic.
THere has never been just three, there's always been sons and daughters of God, Jesus is God's son.

There is a promise that we can receive a fulness of God, so is it a fulness ? or does He leave something out. If a fulness, then we all can be One with God and Christ, therefore there is a potential infinity, not a trinity.

godspeed,


freedom
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