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Old 09-21-2010, 11:56 AM
 
309 posts, read 581,017 times
Reputation: 24

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Violet11 View Post
First, I find it insensitive and disrespectful speaking about your wife and her personal struggles.
And that matters to this conversation because?

Quote:
Second, you stated "Not in my world". Have you considered how "dependency" is defined in other people's worlds?
You did read what I wrote didn't you? That you want to define dependency as any use at all. Which serves your purpose to twist the teaching and I guess to support end_of_faiths position as well.

Now by this time, if I was making such a distorted case for a definition of a word as you are, you would be here with definitions of the word copied from authoritative sources. I wonder why you haven't simply done this case? Could it be that doing so wouldn't support you? Its is extremely telling that someone as thorough as you would leave this out, unless sof course your less about truth then you are pushing your agenda?

lets see:

Quote:
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001522.htm
Drug dependence means that a person needs a drug to function normally. Abruptly stopping the drug leads to withdrawal symptoms. Drug addiction is the compulsive use of a substance, despite its negative or dangerous effects
Quote:
According to the current Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV), substance dependence is defined as:
"When an individual persists in use of alcohol or other drugs despite problems related to use of the substance, substance dependence may be diagnosed. Compulsive and repetitive use may result in tolerance to the effect of the drug and withdrawal symptoms when use is reduced or stopped. This, along with Substance Abuse are considered Substance Use Disorders...."[1]Substance dependence can be diagnosed with physiological dependence, evidence of tolerance or withdrawal, or without physiological dependence.
The related concept of drug addiction has many different definitions. Some writers give in fact drug addiction the same meaning as substance dependence, others for example provide drug addiction a narrower meaning which excludes drugs without evidence of tolerance or withdrawal symptoms.
So, I guess it would be uncommon to interpret a no Drug Dependency to mean a requirement for complete abstinence from smoking Pot for the rest of ones life.

I believe the abstinence view is the one that end_of_faith would require to make her case, the one where I said there was no Vow of Abstinence and she said I was wrong. That what the discussion was about wasn't it? Just trying to keep on track.


Quote:
Yes, you can practice "presence" doing anything - in other words, you can devote every activity to contemplating your "guru". Well, duh! That's part of the brainwashing. The more you think about him, the more he gets injected into your waking and dreaming life, which convinces you he's "real".
You sound silly when you speak about things you don't understand.

Presence for me is not about him as you say. My understanding is that some do that initially, some use his picture as I understand it, those are initial tools. Anyway no sense in getting into the actual truth with you.

Quote:
Provisional faith...how is that NOT blind faith? Maybe you think because it's only "temporary" blindness? But this is a crucial part of the brainwashing, and you're not seeing it because of your temporary blindness/"provisional faith".
I believe the issue was you misrepresenting what I said. Do you think that is fair play, and intelligent discussion to lie about what someone said? Or just ok because this is war to you, so tot speak? Just as a reminder this was the issue:

Quote:
But I also see you twisting my words, - I never 'admitted that everything gary does is excusable' - if I did please show me where. Otherwise I see this as your belief, not mine. What I said was closer to my boundaries (of acceptable) are different then yours.
So are you still insistent i said that everything Gary does is excusable?


Quote:
Just a hunch.
and a wrong one at that

Hows the weather in Connecticut today?

Last edited by allan1015; 09-21-2010 at 12:09 PM..

 
Old 09-21-2010, 12:30 PM
 
42 posts, read 80,298 times
Reputation: 21
Post enough already?

@Allan, @S_K:

I'm obviously not the moderator here, nor, given everything I have seen and read this last year on this thread, would I ever claim to be a peacemaker again in this situation - (for those who haven't figured it out, my moniker was an ironic reference to the day I made my first post in October 2009 - when Obama received his Nobel Peace Prize nomination while the US was engaged in two active - and some would say illegal - conflicts)

But what I also find pretty ironic is that the reference to me below is yet another bit of fuel in this emerging flame-war between Allan vs S_K and the rest of the posters on this thread - you can tell S_K is none too pleased - when has he ever resorted to ALL CAPS in his previous 100+ posts?

I think most of us would agree that this is getting a bit out of hand - I gather the mod cut some of your earlier petrolbombs at each other Allan and S_K last week: you're both ex-servicemen and I'm a civvie so I won't claim to have the ability to fight that either of you has, but can we not all cool our afterburners a little and step back just a bit and take stock?

Allan:

I think everyone can see you have fire for the Master you feel you have chosen - equal to the fire that S_K has for the destruction of MP and the public derobing of the "Master" that he feels he had no choice in choosing, because he feels he was defrauded - but I think it's apparent that neither of you are ever going to agree on anything to do with gary olsen or MP, so isn't it best to leave it be?

S_K:

In regard to your earlier "why don't I Lovingly Bugger Off?" remark to me a week or so ago...well....I might soon olbige you on that: my re-entering this thread was like kicking a hornet's nest that I didn't need to stir again, yet I did what I did, rightly or wrongly, and I am taking the proper responsibility for my actions and answering the questions put to me, which I will complete in due course - (except of course it won't ever be "complete" because it will only evoke another volley of comments and questions - so kind of a catch 22 if I LBO right now?

This thread was created by @Shuffler - a relative of a current MP chela - who didn't specifically state that this was a place only for anti-MP views, so for anyone to "sequestrate" its agenda as a campaign for social justice, "just isn't cricket" wouldn't you say?

Anyone of us is quite at liberty to create a new pro-MP or anti-MP thread on CDF, where I would agree, someone could rightly take offence on an anti-MP thread, at my use of the "sri" term - personally I use SGO as a convenient reference and don't mind what you all want it to have the S stand for.

S_K - I assume you've been to a seminar before and you've seen a room of nearly 1000 chelas? - are you implying they are all duped and wrong - all those doctors and lawyers and execs, engineers, housewives etc were all unable to make their own choices?

And equally to those chelas reading this, I ask: are there reasons none of you are posting? Are Allan and I the only ones who didn't get the message on the Inner (as there certainly hasn't been a clear one on the outer)? Maybe there's something both he and I are missing?

Bottom line is: Allan and I could leave you SOMPers / DOMPers / Campaigners for Social Justice free-rein to do your thing on this thread, or if it is still truly an open forum-thread, then all views should be given the chance to be aired, scrutinized and analyzed in an objective manner.

Is anyone with me on this guys?

Quote:
Originally Posted by allan1015 View Post
...translates to
its actually important to my agenda that we dehumanize allan and paint him as much of a robot as possible. Not only does that take away any actual points he may have, it makes it easier on us to dismiss him and not interface with him in any substantive way.

Quote:
Quote:
pm21 has hope, but as of yet he hasn't answered reasonable questions put to him
lie

Last edited by PeaceMaker21; 09-21-2010 at 12:49 PM.. Reason: grandma
 
Old 09-21-2010, 12:45 PM
 
268 posts, read 457,934 times
Reputation: 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by allan1015 View Post
You sound silly when you speak about things you don't understand.

Presence for me is not about him as you say. My understanding is that some do that initially, some use his picture as I understand it, those are initial tools. Anyway no sense in getting into the actual truth with you.
Well Allan, I am only going on what's written in your master's books - so that is where the silliness originates. If you look in the index of Volume I, and find "Presence of the Master", then follow to the pages mentioning "Presence", they all refer to the Master (Inner AND Outer), not to whatever "tools" you claim to be using. These references describe creating a rapport with the master and petitioning "His Presence".

"Presence" is always capitalized, just like when referring to Gary as "He" or "Him". Your "understanding" doesn't seem to jibe with what's in the book, but I guess you don't really read the books much.

If you really aren't using "Garji"'s image in your practice, then bravo to you. It's just contrary what I've gathered from Gary's books, that's all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by allan1015 View Post
I believe the issue was you misrepresenting what I said. Do you think that is fair play, and intelligent discussion to lie about what someone said? Or just ok because this is war to you, so tot speak? Just as a reminder this was the issue:

So are you still insistent i said that everything Gary does is excusable?
It's about semantics, not "lies". You're really losing it, Allan. How about this:

"Allan thinks everything Gary HAS DONE SO FAR is acceptable."


Quote:
Originally Posted by allan1015 View Post
Hows the weather in Connecticut today?


You sound so silly when you speak about things you know nothing about. I do not live in Connecticut, and I never have. I have no idea where you're getting that. You're completely nuts.

Tell me this, Allan: where did I come across several of Gary's chelas and MasterPath reading materials at the print shop where I worked while in college? Did Gary send his printing jobs to the other side of the country in Connecticut?
 
Old 09-21-2010, 01:06 PM
 
138 posts, read 244,945 times
Reputation: 45
Default Forrest Gump's response

Quote:
Originally Posted by allan1015 View Post
Always seeking opportunity to twist things you folks are.

I said I was overwhelmed because there are half a dozen of you all make these posts that often are rich in half truths and spin and it takes a good deal of effort, especially when words will get picked at, spelling and grammer will be picked at, ec etc etc

Anyway not complaining, I chose it.


Again your stuck on the same thing. Adding the word required doesnt change anything in regards to my response.
"stupid is, as stupid does". I figure since you are repeating what Gary Olsen does, I figured that I would quote back Forrest Gump to you, since that seems to fit here too.

Oh but Allan you are complaining, that is all you do is complain about our viewpoints not coinciding with yours. That we are unfair and unbalanced in our response to the MP and Gary Olsen, about how he has ripped us off is all that we are saying, I mean can't you even accept that, that was our experience. I mean let's face it, if I were investigating the MP and Gary Olsen I would rather talk to those who left it and find out why. The reason to join we have also covered as well, in all fairness. You Allan are just not seeing the wisdom of shutting up. Because your argumentativeness merely makes our point that this, meaning you, is a by-product of the MP, your rants against those that do not believe as you do. Little do you realize that you turn so many away from the MP with what it is that you write.

Really Allan you may not realize this but when I read your written words out loud it sounds like one of those abortion protesters outside of abortion clinic, protesting someone else's choice to live their life differently from your own belief system. Bothers you don't it? (clearly rhetorical)

Nut jobs the lot of 'em.

Allan do you protest at abortion clinics too? Just wondering?
 
Old 09-21-2010, 01:19 PM
 
138 posts, read 244,945 times
Reputation: 45
Default Response to PM21

That would be nice wouldn't it PM21, but it is what it is. When Allan complains and it is without value in truly recognizing that this thread is about hearing from those who think alternatively about the MP then the response is what the response is.

I mean really there is plenty on the MP website, or one can get all sorts of propagandized by a chela at the other end of a phone call that can give an individual information that sells upside of the MP right?

There does need to be some countering, particularly from to those of us who walked away from it, where someone can actually get a complete 360 on the MP before they go becoming indoctrinated into Gary's teachings. I would think that would be the point of investigating the MP right? I mean I would think any reasonably investigative person would want to know all sides right?

What are you suggesting here PM21? a squashing of free speech?

Because that is exactly what Allan would like us to do, to just go away and not have an alternative viewpoint expressed that he doesn't hold about his master to be out there. It brings up too much fear for him to think otherwise.

You really can't be going that far, can you?
 
Old 09-21-2010, 01:28 PM
 
138 posts, read 244,945 times
Reputation: 45
Default Truth be told PM21

If Gary was truly about providing a 360 degree viewpoint of the MP to all his chelas, he would announce the presence of this thread, and mention it at a seminar, (I am sure one of the great unwashed that are still in the MP will record the seminar for themselves).

And then we can all get to hear about what Gary thinks of this thread and those who post on it. I mean come on really PM21 where is the 360 degree viewpoint from your own master when he is unwilling to take on his own detractors in public? Those that have come from within the MP ranks and left for whatever reason.

That's the puss way out, you know, I know it, and now the rest of the world knows it.

I mean even the Catholic Church had to hear from it's dissenters, and what did it do, it met with them and listened to what they had to say, and when they didn't meet with them they got sued. Sounds like the MP is just like the Catholic Church and Gary is its Poop, oh sorry Pope. (My apologies to the Catholics)
 
Old 09-21-2010, 02:18 PM
 
42 posts, read 80,298 times
Reputation: 21
Smile on Mr R and Mr O

S_K:

I'm all for free speech, and I've no intention of squashing it.

In addition to the throngs of devoted masses, Mr Joseph Ratzinger had his fair share of pro-condom, pro-choicer protesters here in Britain this weekend - (don't even get me started on Pope B's Nazi past: was he free or was he a robot when taking pot-shots at British planes?...but that's a topic for another thread....)

I myself drew comparisons of the MP to the Catholic Church a while back when I specuated that the "stored funds and olive trees" etc might simply be part of the "papacy-package" as it were - to be handed from Master to Master in the lineage of future MP gurus - however many deep it might run - (SGO once mentioned he'd be pleased with a run of 200 years) - (S_K, I'm figuring you're figuring single-digits for its remaining lifespan?)

Anyway, let Justice serve what it will serve: que sera sera. I'm sure SGO is probably more than adequately able to handle a bit of flak on a thread like this so the question arises why hasn't he commented as yet?

My personal take on why Mr O isn't bringing up this thread in any meetings (other than that seeker meeting reference by @spinspun that we saw posted here for a while which said something about having "to deal with the detractors, and try to point out why there is a difference between MP and other paths") is the "Scratch an Itch" principle - the more you scratch an itch, the more it itches, so I'm figuring Mr O's approach is to simply "ignore it (this thread) and hope it goes away in time.

I have a hunch that there's also the "icy patience" school of parenting at play here, which is the exact inverse of "the squeakiest wheel gets the most oil" approach - i.e. the louder people b-tch on this thread, the less attention they'll get. This is just my hunch, other chelas or ex-MPers may have other ideas.

As a chela, to get the 360 is the very reason I'm here - people have asked a couple of times how I found this thread: Well, friends and relatives of mine whom I had talked to about the path in the past mentioned last summer that they'd found negative things being said on the internet about gary olsen, so I simply googled "sri gary masterpath" and this thread popped up in the first few pages of matches - not an english garden in sight

Quote:
Originally Posted by Still_Kicking View Post
If Gary was truly about providing a 360 degree viewpoint of the MP to all his chelas, he would announce the presence of this thread, and mention it at a seminar, (I am sure one of the great unwashed that are still in the MP will record the seminar for themselves).

And then we can all get to hear about what Gary thinks of this thread and those who post on it. I mean come on really PM21 where is the 360 degree viewpoint from your own master when he is unwilling to take on his own detractors in public? Those that have come from within the MP ranks and left for whatever reason.

That's the puss way out, you know, I know it, and now the rest of the world knows it.

I mean even the Catholic Church had to hear from it's dissenters, and what did it do, it met with them and listened to what they had to say, and when they didn't meet with them they got sued. Sounds like the MP is just like the Catholic Church and Gary is its Poop, oh sorry Pope. (My apologies to the Catholics)

Last edited by PeaceMaker21; 09-21-2010 at 02:28 PM..
 
Old 09-21-2010, 02:29 PM
 
20 posts, read 28,517 times
Reputation: 22
Default Personality Worship part A

Allan 1015, What is that signature Allan? The date you started on MP. Don't you see how lame that is when everything in your life becomes related back to MP. Just like the last time you tried to dominate this thread I have once again stopped reading your posts after the first page. Now I would like to get back to gettig some input from the people on this post from whom I respect and value their opinions. I need answers from people who understand what I have been through.

Incidently, Still Kicking, that was an awesom response about the afterlife. You stated my feelings and thoughts on this subject quite sucinctly.

Thank you Shuffler for bringing up the Seminar this weekend. I was wondering if anyone else knew of this next event.

I have come across some very old 'Con Notes', of which exemplifies the the doctrine that was being espoused at the time of servitude for many of us on this thread. I would be intrested in knowing what you think of these excerpts. Who do you think wrote them? What kind of manipulation do you see between the lines?

the note starts out with MY DEAREST ONES,

This month, I would like to discuss the importance on understanding the phrase "personality cult" and what it means both objectively and subjectively. Coupled with this explination, I would like to briefly review the spiritual exercises and show how this new understanding of personality worship either augments or diminishes the value and reach of our spiritual endeavors.

In general, any path that does not have access to the Sound Current is a personality cult. Without the sound, all spiritual practice is reduced to the santana flow, which of course is comprised of the MEST qualities. Without the Sound the higher trinity within our own constitution which are the soul, spirit, and God components, are not invoked or brought into a dynamic manifestation within our own unfoldment. We are left with our own lower bodies and the inherent dualistic vibration that composes these lower identities.

While in the lower bodies and attempting to unfold within this spectrum or wavelength, the attention has only three minds in which to actively engage and understand the meaning of spirituality. As all chelas know, the three minds could also be described as the ego, subtle ego, and the personality. There is a higher and lower aspect to each one of these, but even within the higher manifestation, Kal usually has his way. It is these three false identifications that impose this "personality worship" upon not only the Outer and Inner Masters, but the higher trinity of the ruling entity or organism.

Now to worship anything...through the construct of emotions, mind, or memoy that is currently within the MEST worlds, automatically becomes a personality cult. Wheather the object is animate or inanimate makes little difference, for worship is being employed, and this worship is outside or external to the inner sanctum of the chela. A personality cult can also be defined as devoted attachment to a person, and in viewing all existent paths prevalent in our world today, we find that every path is sorely attached to a personality or person wheather it be the founder, or the current representative of the respective path. ................................blah, blah,blah

Therefore, an "objective personality cult" is worshiping any figure both other than yourself and outside of yourself, making them an authority over your Self. Huge amounts of adoratiion, worship, and praise are heaped uon these founding personalities and the seekers of the world beseech these personalities hoping for their own redemption and salvation. In doing this, the seeker unknowingly defies an external agency, continually attempting to breathe life into this dead image. The founder is not currently with his respective devotee and so this worship goes for naught, except in offering some illusory balm for the seeker's troubled heart and mind.

A subjective personality cult" is far more subtle........blah, blah,blah
The chelas are confident that they understand the objective limitations of a personality cult, and they do, but they fail to take this far enough and fall into the snare of worshiping their own personalities .

This goes on for pages insturcting chelas on how to overcome physical ailments during their spiritual exercises.

Part B..... after blah blah
In the beginning, it is natural for the chela to worship the Outer Master, for the transcendency of the Shabda Master is too profound and dubious at this time. If the Outer Master is a True Sat Guru, then he is not really a human being, but the word made flesh. This circumvents the danger of giving your worship to an outside agency. The Sat Guru will take this worship and refashion and reeducate it to make it fit for the inner worship of the Inner Master. Therefore worship of the Outer Master is the same as worshiping the inner Master. They are different, yes, but the protection and guidance are there to safely cross this infinite abyss between internal and external. blah, blah, and more confusing blah.

In conclusion, Therefore, worship of anything other than the Two Faces of the Master brings defeat, for the personality will not reveal itself nor give up its false rulership unless the Eternal Son has ordained it to happen. We should depend on the Master in both forms and nothing else, until our own Mastership has been handed to us by the Inner Master in Sach Kand.
Get by these two "personality cults" prior to the spiritual practice or just as it begins, and the spiritual exercise will take on new meaning, bringing to you the lift and inspiration that are needed to live in this earth world. It brings peace love and knowingness that this can never be taken away. Of course it ends, I love you all dearly.

What the f.......

I actually spent years trying to make sense out of this.
 
Old 09-21-2010, 03:45 PM
 
309 posts, read 581,017 times
Reputation: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeaceMaker21 View Post
I think everyone can see you have fire for the Master you feel you have chosen - equal to the fire that S_K has for the destruction of MP and the public derobing of the "Master" that he feels he had no choice in choosing, because he feels he was defrauded - but I think it's apparent that neither of you are ever going to agree on anything to do with Gary olsen or MP, so isn't it best to leave it be?
PM21, I do appreciate the effort and agree with the sentiments. For me though its not about a fire I feel, a love I feel for all forms of Master and the MP path. I don't feel at all like I am defending my Guru/Path. I am not capable of such. I know thats is how others feel and perhaps there is some truth in that aspect, but its not what drives me.

But leave it be? There is a lack of intellectual honesty here, of twisted and spin. Should that be left be? Perhaps but then there is the fun of it. There is sharpening of skills, there is pleasure in truth, and yes it is good to offset the bigotry and champion religious freedom. This place has made my practice stronger.

Of course as I said recently, if this in interference with my primary goals in life, I stop. I know some of the other chelas that wre here, they seem to be done with the place because its tiring, its time consuming, its negative. People don't fight fair, they accuse us of he same tactics they commit. Many simply don't have the stomach for it. It becomes personal to them. others likely feel they are following teaching and staying away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Still_Kicking View Post
...truly recognizing that this thread is about hearing from those who think alternatively about the MP then the response is what the response is.
THAT IS NOT WHAT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT.
If you find it unfair that we Cheals also get to play because MP has other resources - what malarky and tuff ****e.
As best I can tell this thread is about anything MP, all aspects, no aspect is off topic, neither pro nor con.
If you want a thread like that - start one.

Appreciate your post.

Last edited by allan1015; 09-21-2010 at 04:53 PM..
 
Old 09-21-2010, 04:17 PM
 
309 posts, read 581,017 times
Reputation: 24
Quote:
If you really aren't using "Garji"'s image in your practice, then bravo to you. It's just contrary what I've gathered from Gary's books, that's all.
I find many times what you present as fact, what you've read is to me limited/partial. For me I find that with years of reading, listening and daily contemplation things are richer and not as flat as first read or heard.

There is something about reading Scripture, something that causes what is read this month top come across differently next year, next decade. Its not inherent to MP, my neighbor a Baptist minister says the same thing has happen to him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Violet11 View Post
Well Allan, I am only going on what's written in your master's books - so that is where the silliness originates.
What I see is your going 'your' interpretation of what is written. Your interpretation based on what I'll call first reading and is driven/filtered in your belief system, intellect, your current context/perspective. Not that is particular to you, thats how we are all wired.

In any case, if you are of the belief that its all there in black and white and your reading isn't 'filtered' or that reading once in abstract of any practice is all thats needed, - well thats ignorance too. I think your to smart to believe that.

Quote:
It's about semantics, not "lies". You're really losing it, Allan. How about this:

"Allan thinks everything Gary HAS DONE SO FAR is acceptable."
I don't like that either because I am not aware of everything that has been done, Perhaps my day job of legal and licensing gets in the way.
The point is I said something very different, to me, then 'acceptable'

Being able to set 'oddities' (points of disagreement with Sri Gary's actions or the teachings) aside, or when working on them to go at it with an perspective it is likely me thats wrong - none of that is saying they are acceptable, or not acceptable. My boundaries are different then yours, my tolerances perhaps, - definitely my perspective and how I look at things is very different.

Trying to pin me down to such language is not acceptable.

Quote:
You're completely nuts.
Among a long list of other adjectives and faults you and your friends here have told me over and over. I suspect that an analysis would show that some 90% of every post to me has some reference to some personality trait of mine, primarily negative.

Peace be with You
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