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One of the foundation beliefs in the Christian religion is that when Jesus was crucified and died on the cross that he died for our sins. For those of you who know me, you know I'm not asking that in some sarcastic manner, I just honestly have never understood what that even means. First of all, Christians also believe that Jesus arose from the dead and that he's living right now so he really isn't really dead afterall. So here's a few questions about this situation. If Jesus hadn't died for our sins how would that have changed the circumstances of the lives of every human being? What exactly does it mean when Christians say he died for our sins? Are you saying that even though Jesus didn't commit the sins committed by billions of human beings that it erased their bad behavior and somehow changed the fundamental situation they would be facing and gave them an opportunity for eternal life which they otherwise would not have had? I've really never heard anyone explain this whole scenario in simple, easy to understand language that actually makes sense and yet this is one of the core principles of the Christian religion. Can anyway explain this in layman's terms without quoting the Bible and simply lay out their thoughts in an easy to understand manner?
Jesus Died Because Of sin /Evil.
Jesus asked God to forgive us, because we did not know what we were doing wrong...even though Jesus was kicking it litterally out of his fathers house....
What has been changed..is the wording...Jesus died because Humans sin continually...
When we stop sinning, and start doing what God has asked of us...only then will Jesus and God come.
Acts 3:21..Rev 17:17..Genesis 2:15, 9:3..Acts 10:15...Mathew 6:24.
These references seem to be in league with a comminality or simily...and the seed the size of a mustard seed needs to be restored to its rightful place sinlessly every age.
So..when this is done...then God and Jesus will come...for with doing the act, service, and standing sinlessly in doing it from the heart...we make holy ground!
Now some would joust that this is nonsense...But if you believe in nature..Plants are part of a fractal...and some things are made to service them all.....and this is in part electrical..and is tied to the sun in some ways, and the universe in others...so sowing the right seeds could open a conduit in time and space right here on Earth...for God and christ to come through...
Plants can climatize the planet if they are sowed in the right ways.
Just have to believe in God.
But again some will joust and spit at the idea....of living for free in perfect natural estates.
But we know matterial things do not feed the hungery..and the poor cannot afford housing, heating, and other high priced commodities, this bent polluted world is relying on!
Poisoning the dandelions, and the air and waters, and removing the seeds from the fruits, so no one can grow their own food... is a travisty!!!!...for they are freely given and ultimately sound foundations being removed from our minds and our futures!
Genetic minipulation of certain plants/Prohibition which leads to selfishness of the one species, shows how far bent the ideal of wealth/control/propodanda has gone since Christ's walk.
So in the beginning God made EDEN...and something went haywire in our heads...and God sent us out of EDEN...into a opposite likeness...which God says we Humans created.....and he gave us word and reason and logics to change it back or change the signs from negitive, back to positive....from death back into life...by undoing..or reversal, of the way we came into it...
GOD >He even sent his son into death...to show us...and tell us we are forgiven..and we could come home, if we stop sinning..
We then have to ask ,what is sin?
And the Bible explains it all..as...Not obeying God's will or word.....But you only have to turn on your tv to a news channel these days to hear the daily scoop!
Now if God made us to tend and keep the garden...I'd say this world is now showing complete and utter disrespect of the wilderness, and its inhabitants, and even God's word and will...as they pollute it all for profits and gains...
And who are at the root of it?....the consumer ofcourse!...the gluttons...the delusional who think this kind of life style will continue on...and the machines they depend on will save them...
But that is just part of their delusion....there is always room for the readers perspective point.
Jesus died so we could live..."Those who Do the will of the Father, shall enter paradise"........it is a self fulfilling paradox! = Edens would be the multiple...we are the multipliers...or so it would be said?.
And Jesus says " I'm making all things new" and "I'm making a place for you"...but you still have to get there, by doing! ..sinlessly!...for every action there is a place and a time alllotted....the sinless live forever!
So, you don't believe the Bible is God's Word, correct? Jesus claimed He came to offer up His life "as a ransom for many".
Did Jesus himself say that, or did someone else say that (ransom for many) ABOUT jesus? Either way, I don't doubt the verity of your statement, I just do not interpret it as you do. Jesus was definitely a "ransom" for the people; I do believe he was a son of god and therefore subject to a life where he had no choice but to live as he did, ultimately to be persecuted as he was. But simply because he was a "ransom" does not imply to me at all that he died for our sins- rather, he LIVED and suffered in order to teach and become a symbol with which all who knew him and, as time was to pass, knew OF him and that which he taught and shared. And I believe that his wish was to perpetuate the good and kindness he shared, as well as the myriad of parables and stories he told as life lessons to pass on and live on through others.
What I do not believe is that he in any way implied that he gave his life in order that we people may sin and be forgiven; he simply was a victim of the sins of men (horrible, ugly, fearful people who wanted him dead because he threatened their government and power), and yet he forgave them, and wanted to be a living example of the inherent flaw within humans to do wrong (or "sin", if you will) while illustrating forgiveness. He forgave god for "using" him as a human, tangible means to spread said word of god, just as he forgave the men who killed him- just as god would in turn forgive said men for wronging jesus.
And to answer your question no, I do not believe the bible is "god's word". Even if the words may have been inspired by god, the bible is man's word because it was written by man.
If he genuinely believed Christ died for his sins, yes. No one meets God's standard of holiness. Even those we consider "good" people. We're all sinners in need of a savior, according to God's Word. Romans 3:23
See above. Anyone who earnestly seeks after God will find Him. Deuteronomy 4:29
Those may be quotes from books written by other humans, but I can't swallow that Osama Bin Laden and Hitler are the same as my neighbour's granny who raised her daughter and then her three grandkids, when the daughter died.
Also millions and maybe even billions of people were born and died before Jesus was even born. So they are all going to hell-for the crime of being born before him? Unlike today with the internet, even centuries after his death, millions and billions all lived and died without hearing of Christianity and sorry don't beleive that they are all rotting in hell.
I can get quotations from Shakesphere too-but that doesn't make it real. Everything about God, humans described and wrote about-just as they described and wrote about many different things. I just don't take every thing someone wrote thousnads of years ago literally.
Did Jesus himself say that, or did someone else say that (ransom for many) ABOUT jesus? Either way, I don't doubt the verity of your statement, I just do not interpret it as you do. Jesus was definitely a "ransom" for the people; I do believe he was a son of god and therefore subject to a life where he had no choice but to live as he did, ultimately to be persecuted as he was. But simply because he was a "ransom" does not imply to me at all that he died for our sins- rather, he LIVED and suffered in order to teach and become a symbol with which all who knew him and, as time was to pass, knew OF him and that which he taught and shared. And I believe that his wish was to perpetuate the good and kindness he shared, as well as the myriad of parables and stories he told as life lessons to pass on and live on through others.
What I do not believe is that he in any way implied that he gave his life in order that we people may sin and be forgiven; he simply was a victim of the sins of men (horrible, ugly, fearful people who wanted him dead because he threatened their government and power), and yet he forgave them, and wanted to be a living example of the inherent flaw within humans to do wrong (or "sin", if you will) while illustrating forgiveness. He forgave god for "using" him as a human, tangible means to spread said word of god, just as he forgave the men who killed him- just as god would in turn forgive said men for wronging jesus.
And to answer your question no, I do not believe the bible is "god's word". Even if the words may have been inspired by god, the bible is man's word because it was written by man.
Your right He did not come here to teach sin...and then we can be forgiven...he was teaching us to stop sinning!!..."Do no More Sin and be forgiven"
Now how could we figure he came to say let us sin continually..and then ask for forgiveness continually?..time and time again...how many times was said 11 x 7...or 7 x 77? how many times do we get to baptise? If we continually do the same sins and evils that brought Jesus to his death?
And, is Murder not breaking a commandment of God.?
So symbolically we continue to do the sins, by breaking the commandments of God today daily!
And in likeness we still crusify Jesus unintentionally through our disobediance, and lack of doing completely the commandments of God!.....or our hands are tied to the murdering of others...by way of warfare...and the things which bring about that estate.
So in that regard, an amount of time was allotted to get it right...
And Because Jesus said to let the evil and filthy and holy , and righteous be...we can see the outcomes and draw lines to the roots of those outcomes...so we can see a clearer picture as to why,what, when, where, who...and how....because it will be made clear throught seeing and knowing those outcomes that we will eventually come into the truth and the light, as their Evils consume them, and show signs of their downfall....and as the righteous do the right things Edens will abound in time...as they fulfill Gods words.
According to scripture only the good deserve...Good Only Deserve...G.O.D.
Now more than ever before...nature needs our help...changing wild into tame with love...
God is still asking us to Tend and Keep the Garden...sinlessly of course.
And the modernized industrial systems we support ,are now jeprodizing and polluting the very existance of many elemental elements and creatures God made Good for the natural eco systems that support us all.
And what does this mindlessness make?
More sickness!
More suffering!
More poverty!
More destitution!
More eco system problems...
More False Profits and gains off of all that....while the planet slowly dies a final death?
Hmmm the earth is quaking..so I guess something is itching to get out.
Maybe just maybe it is all about a seed which humankind keeps on denying and has been brainwashed into thinking it is bad...when in the right light..it is good....as God has said all along...it is how it is used that is the key...intent, a very strong showing of INTENT....
What does the intent of the industiralized system which pollutes the enviroment project?
Especailly while prohibiting the sowing of certain seeds?
And what is the second death for?
Do we slaughter Jesus a second time around?
hmmm?
Now if you do not believe in God, or Jesus (Jeshua or Joshua) Then believe in me...I'm saying it right now...The same things in the same way...wonder where that comes from?
Did Jesus himself say that, or did someone else say that (ransom for many) ABOUT jesus? Either way, I don't doubt the verity of your statement, I just do not interpret it as you do. Jesus was definitely a "ransom" for the people; I do believe he was a son of god and therefore subject to a life where he had no choice but to live as he did, ultimately to be persecuted as he was. But simply because he was a "ransom" does not imply to me at all that he died for our sins- rather, he LIVED and suffered in order to teach and become a symbol with which all who knew him and, as time was to pass, knew OF him and that which he taught and shared. And I believe that his wish was to perpetuate the good and kindness he shared, as well as the myriad of parables and stories he told as life lessons to pass on and live on through others.
What I do not believe is that he in any way implied that he gave his life in order that we people may sin and be forgiven; he simply was a victim of the sins of men (horrible, ugly, fearful people who wanted him dead because he threatened their government and power), and yet he forgave them, and wanted to be a living example of the inherent flaw within humans to do wrong (or "sin", if you will) while illustrating forgiveness. He forgave god for "using" him as a human, tangible means to spread said word of god, just as he forgave the men who killed him- just as god would in turn forgive said men for wronging jesus.
And to answer your question no, I do not believe the bible is "god's word". Even if the words may have been inspired by god, the bible is man's word because it was written by man.
See bolded above. The answer to your question is, both Jesus & others said it (Matthew 20, Mark 10, 1 Tomothy 2, Hebrews 9). Also, the prophet Isaiah said (hundreds of years prior): But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed. (Isaiah 53)
According to the Bible, you are mistaken. It's really quite clear & obvious. I hope you will accept the truth.
Those may be quotes from books written by other humans, but I can't swallow that Osama Bin Laden and Hitler are the same as my neighbour's granny who raised her daughter and then her three grandkids, when the daughter died.
I didn't say they were-only that God's mercy makes it possible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by smh1
Also millions and maybe even billions of people were born and died before Jesus was even born. So they are all going to hell-for the crime of being born before him? Unlike today with the internet, even centuries after his death, millions and billions all lived and died without hearing of Christianity and sorry don't beleive that they are all rotting in hell.
I repeat, anyone who seeks after God will find Him, before or after Jesus' physical life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by smh1
I can get quotations from Shakesphere too-but that doesn't make it real. Everything about God, humans described and wrote about-just as they described and wrote about many different things. I just don't take every thing someone wrote thousnads of years ago literally.
While Shakespeare is wonderful, the Bible is The Word of God, our creator.
The answer to your question is, both Jesus & others said it (Matthew 20, Mark 10, 1 Tomothy 2, Hebrews 9).
So you are saying that the OT made a prophecy and the NT confirmed that it came true? Don't you realise that the authors of the NT knew very well what the messianic prophecies in the OT were and consequently, wrote the NT in a way that made it appear that their man-god was the messiah spoken of in the OT? It 'aint rocket science fella!
So you are saying that the OT made a prophecy and the NT confirmed that it came true? Don't you realise that the authors of the NT knew very well what the messianic prophecies in the OT were and consequently, wrote the NT in a way that made it appear that their man-god was the messiah spoken of in the OT? It 'aint rocket science fella!
That's funny, but not the subject of this discussion. Read the title of the thread.
See bolded above. The answer to your question is, both Jesus & others said it (Matthew 20, Mark 10, 1 Tomothy 2, Hebrews 9). Also, the prophet Isaiah said (hundreds of years prior): But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed. (Isaiah 53)
According to the Bible, you are mistaken. It's really quite clear & obvious. I hope you will accept the truth.
By the "truth", I think you must mean "YOUR truth", and that which YOU believe to be true. Remember, I do not believe in the bible as the word of god but the word of man written via the inspiration of god. But being that you seem to see the bible as some sort of authority, of course you interpret the words therein differently than someone like me does.
I still do not believe that we as humans can sin away and just be forgiven simply because a bunch of jerks killed jesus, who was a very controversial and outspoken activist of his time- son of god or not, and I refuse to believe that jesus died just in order that we can sin and just be forgiven (though many people actually believe that). Personally, I don't even believe in the word "sin", I just believe that people do bad things and act poorly and do things that extend beyond that which is acceptable to those with any sort of moral compass. It's about personal responsibility and the onus we all bear to look inside ourselves and seek our own forgiveness and make an effort to do better which, in turn, helps ourselves and our fellow man. God is not a person with any sort of emotion nor ability to make judgements, god is an energy and entity. So god cannot forgive he who does not forgive himself nor can god live within he who denies the reality of the effect that his own actions have on himself, and others. And with that realization comes spiritual growth and, in turn, a better, kinder world in which to live. THAT is what jesus had in mind.
I repeat, anyone who seeks after God will find Him, before or after Jesus' physical life.
.
In that case we are in agreement. It is not necessary to know Jesus in order to reach God.
He is but one of many ways!
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..sinlessly!...for every action there is a place and a time alllotted....the sinless live forever!
