Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 10-09-2008, 12:06 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 14,528,755 times
Reputation: 753

Advertisements

Belief in God is not logical by man's standards, if you only follow logic, I fear you are in for a fall because it is only a matter of time that you don't believe in God at all. Yes I know because I have been there and seen many of my friends who could not let go. It's called "pride" (the first sin) but I know God is working on you.

(1 Corinthians 1)

18 I know very well how foolish the message of the cross sounds to those who are on the road to destruction. But we who are being saved recognize this message as the very power of God.

25 This “foolish” plan of God is far wiser than the wisest of human plans, and God’s weakness is far stronger than the greatest of human strength.

27 Instead, God deliberately chose things the world considers foolish in order to shame those who think they are wise.

God Bless and I will be praying for you

 
Old 10-09-2008, 12:09 PM
 
352 posts, read 551,623 times
Reputation: 76
I do realize that; I was merely saying that becoming a person who relies solely on faith and trust in Christ isn't something that happens over night. I have already taken the first step, through the strength He gave me, to admit that logic alone will not save me; I must learn through the teachings of the Spirit to let go of these things and be rooted in faith above all else. But that takes time, experience, and God's help.
 
Old 10-09-2008, 12:16 PM
 
7,784 posts, read 14,859,439 times
Reputation: 3478
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
I suggest that Josh McDowl's evidence was probably what you already believed, or wanted to believe before you read it....Here is an examination of the book's contents.
Bob,

Like you my eggs are in one basket. Hopefully neither of us ends up with an omelet.
Well the OP wasn't Debate if God exists.

It was a question posed to Christians to help the OP understand where we come from when we enter into faith-based discussion.

Specifically:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nero777 View Post
How are you, as CHRISTIANS, certain that God exists? What evidence do you feel supports your view and why does it?
Now the OP has rightfully engaged in conversation with non-Christians in this thread and I think that's great and certainly no one is more out of line in this thread than myself as far as getting off-topic, but I don't think I approached EtDV with pre-conceived notions but I guess that would be something impossible to discern.

Have you ever read it, sanspeur? It's pretty interesting and while nothing will ever remove the need for faith, it makes some compelling arguments.
 
Old 10-09-2008, 12:28 PM
 
7,784 posts, read 14,859,439 times
Reputation: 3478
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nero777 View Post
Yours and Alpha's seem to have stronger spiritual ties than mine, which is more rooted in logic and objectivity. Is that bad? I don't think so; I believe God made me a man of logic for a reason and that I am to use it to help Christians by showing them and those around them that there faith isn't blind or superstitious, but is also rooted in historical and scientific facts. You and Alpha can use your gifts more or less to help people struggling in their faith become more dependent on God and learn to live a life that is completely surrendered to Jesus. My logic is coming into a clash with your faith and that may be why we are having trouble understanding one another.


I don't really understand that portion of your post.

You just basically said "I use logic and you don't", didn't you?

I'm sorry, Nero777, but the logic of man can NEVER understand God. If you are leaning on your own understanding you are heading for a fall.

Yes my faith is rooted in the spiritual and I hope yours is too. And I don't need a human to try and use logic to tell me my faith isn't blind, as you suggest. I fully understand my faith and while the object of it is veiled at times, it's never blind. Look at what you wrote here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nero777 View Post
The point of this thread wasn't to become a battle of egos and wit; it was meant for Christians to look within themselves and evaluate their faith in comparison with ideas that people today are considering as fact. Oh and by the way, when was believing in something or someone a sign of idiocy? Last time I checked, atheists couldn't explain how the first living organism ever was able to form on the earth; they aren't quite sure and they put forth different kinds of theories and ideas, but that is all they are. In the end, in the words of Gould, "we can't let a divine foot in the door"; you people are willing to accept any other theory other than the possibility that there is a divine being working behind the scenes. You dismiss it because it challenges your BELIEF system.
I bolded a key sentence and underlines something else to even closer hone in on.

'Considering as fact' and fact are two different things.

Faith will never come out of the God equation. NEVER.
 
Old 10-09-2008, 01:43 PM
 
352 posts, read 551,623 times
Reputation: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207 View Post


I don't really understand that portion of your post.

You just basically said "I use logic and you don't", didn't you?

I'm sorry, Nero777, but the logic of man can NEVER understand God. If you are leaning on your own understanding you are heading for a fall.

Yes my faith is rooted in the spiritual and I hope yours is too. And I don't need a human to try and use logic to tell me my faith isn't blind, as you suggest. I fully understand my faith and while the object of it is veiled at times, it's never blind. Look at what you wrote here:



I bolded a key sentence and underlines something else to even closer hone in on.

'Considering as fact' and fact are two different things.

Faith will never come out of the God equation. NEVER.
Let me see if I can put this another way because you and Reformed have said this on more than one instance. I am a person of logic and objectivity; I have to see rationality and reason behind everything or else I find it pointless. At a younger age, I was a proclaiming atheist because I felt that there was no real proof for God when compared with evolution and the genetic similarites between us and monkeys and several other kinds of creatures out there. However, God worked in some way, shape, or form to help me look past those supposed "facts". He peaked my interest and helped me begin a study as well as meet quite a few Christian people, who I have come to know and love with all my heart, that would help set the stage for my conversion. I received Christ into my life and saw Him as Lord and Savior; however, like the Scripture suggests, just because I have accepted Christ into my life doesn't mean I have shaken off the things that were a part of my old life, whether it be sin or habit. I was still a man of logic and understanding; I read plenty of apologetics books and was still looking for answers. I grew frustrated often, and despite my pastor and my Christian friends who tried to help wean me off this thirst for understanding, I was still looking for answers. That was when I came across the passages you showed above Alpha that some sense was finally entering my head and helped me understand the frustration I was experiencing. I began to learn to let go and do what my former youth pastors use to tell me to do: "Let God be God". That wasn't all that long ago, and I am learning daily to quit questioning God on every last thing; I never said I was proud of the fact that my faith still has ties to knowledge and logic, but it is the truth and I am trying to ask you all to please be patient with me, Jesus isn't done with me yet. I don't need any of you to tell me what is obvious through the Scripture; instead, I just need you guys to support me and at least pray that one day I won't have to be so fixated on logic and reasoning when it comes to this relationship with Christ. I hopefully have explained where I am coming from for some of you (now that I have officially gone way off topic).
 
Old 10-09-2008, 02:16 PM
 
Location: An absurd world.
5,160 posts, read 9,153,248 times
Reputation: 2023
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reformed Liberal View Post
I am sorry but your logic is convoluted especially about, "3. If Islam is true, you are in big trouble. See how that means nothing to you? Well, the same thing applies when Christians use that argument against people who aren't Christians."

You are right it doesn't scare me but not for the reasons you think. You see True Christianity is the only religion with real consequences, all other world religions either you have a second chance or you cease to exist- therefore I see no trouble that I am in. It's a win win situation for a Christian!
Islam is so screwed up that even Islamics don't even know if they are going to heaven or not UNLESS you are a martyr (suicide bombing ring a bell) and even if you make it to heaven, after living in heaven for give or take hmmmmm......5,023 years, allah could change his mind and kick you out and send you to hell, no reasons because he can.
Your belief, not fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reformed Liberal View Post
Our God will never do that because that will go against His very nature, He is the same today, yesterday and forever. To go against His own nature will prove He is not God. Ahhhh!!!!
Smh.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reformed Liberal View Post
You claim to not believe in God because it is “not scientific” or “because there is no proof.” The true reason is that if you people admit that there is the possibility of a God, you also must realize that you are responsible to God and in need of forgiveness from God.
I have said before that there is a possibility that a god exists, however, I see no evidence for one, so I don't believe. What you're essentially telling me is that people are responsible and need for forgiveness for something they don't believe in. If you actually believe that, I don't know what to tell you. If I said I believed in a god, I'd be lying to myself. Belief isn't something you can turn on and off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reformed Liberal View Post
If God exists, then you are accountable for your actions to Him. If God does not exist, then you can do whatever you want without having to worry about God judging you.
Old argument. If you need belief in a god to do good, I'm morally superior to you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reformed Liberal View Post
I believe that is why you so strongly cling to evolution - it gives you an alternative to believing in a Creator God.
There are many people who believe in a god and accept evolution. Not to mention, there is tons of evidence for evolution. Believing in a god and accepting proof when you see it aren't alternatives and are not mutually exclusive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reformed Liberal View Post
God exists and ultimately you know that He exists.
You wish. I don't believe in any form of god.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reformed Liberal View Post
The very fact that you waist countless hours so aggressively to disprove His existence is in fact an argument for His existence.
The very fact that people waste countless hours trying to disprove the Apollo moon landing is in fact proof that it happened.

Make sense? No? Didn't think so. Your argument doesn't either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reformed Liberal View Post
(Psalm 14:1)
“The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God."
I have believer friends and get along with many on this board, so I'll just let this one go instead of offending anyone.

Here's a word of advice: You say you want to prove that the concept of a god is plausible and rational. That's fine, however, you'd rather waste your time claiming I'm not an atheist and I actually believe. I guess that would make your job much easier. After all, nobody has ever proven the concept of a god to be plausible or rational. Laziness is not the answer sir. Good day.

Signed,

A moral, happy, atheist.
 
Old 10-09-2008, 03:01 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 14,528,755 times
Reputation: 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nero777 View Post
Let me see if I can put this another way because you and Reformed have said this on more than one instance. I am a person of logic and objectivity; I have to see rationality and reason behind everything or else I find it pointless. At a younger age, I was a proclaiming atheist because I felt that there was no real proof for God when compared with evolution and the genetic similarites between us and monkeys and several other kinds of creatures out there. However, God worked in some way, shape, or form to help me look past those supposed "facts". He peaked my interest and helped me begin a study as well as meet quite a few Christian people, who I have come to know and love with all my heart, that would help set the stage for my conversion. I received Christ into my life and saw Him as Lord and Savior; however, like the Scripture suggests, just because I have accepted Christ into my life doesn't mean I have shaken off the things that were a part of my old life, whether it be sin or habit. I was still a man of logic and understanding; I read plenty of apologetics books and was still looking for answers. I grew frustrated often, and despite my pastor and my Christian friends who tried to help wean me off this thirst for understanding, I was still looking for answers. That was when I came across the passages you showed above Alpha that some sense was finally entering my head and helped me understand the frustration I was experiencing. I began to learn to let go and do what my former youth pastors use to tell me to do: "Let God be God". That wasn't all that long ago, and I am learning daily to quit questioning God on every last thing; I never said I was proud of the fact that my faith still has ties to knowledge and logic, but it is the truth and I am trying to ask you all to please be patient with me, Jesus isn't done with me yet. I don't need any of you to tell me what is obvious through the Scripture; instead, I just need you guys to support me and at least pray that one day I won't have to be so fixated on logic and reasoning when it comes to this relationship with Christ. I hopefully have explained where I am coming from for some of you (now that I have officially gone way off topic).
LOL....That's ok, there is nothing more important than your salvation.
 
Old 10-09-2008, 04:06 PM
 
7,784 posts, read 14,859,439 times
Reputation: 3478
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nero777 View Post
Let me see if I can put this another way because you and Reformed have said this on more than one instance. I am a person of logic and objectivity; I have to see rationality and reason behind everything or else I find it pointless. At a younger age, I was a proclaiming atheist because I felt that there was no real proof for God when compared with evolution and the genetic similarites between us and monkeys and several other kinds of creatures out there. However, God worked in some way, shape, or form to help me look past those supposed "facts". He peaked my interest and helped me begin a study as well as meet quite a few Christian people, who I have come to know and love with all my heart, that would help set the stage for my conversion. I received Christ into my life and saw Him as Lord and Savior; however, like the Scripture suggests, just because I have accepted Christ into my life doesn't mean I have shaken off the things that were a part of my old life, whether it be sin or habit. I was still a man of logic and understanding; I read plenty of apologetics books and was still looking for answers. I grew frustrated often, and despite my pastor and my Christian friends who tried to help wean me off this thirst for understanding, I was still looking for answers. That was when I came across the passages you showed above Alpha that some sense was finally entering my head and helped me understand the frustration I was experiencing. I began to learn to let go and do what my former youth pastors use to tell me to do: "Let God be God". That wasn't all that long ago, and I am learning daily to quit questioning God on every last thing; I never said I was proud of the fact that my faith still has ties to knowledge and logic, but it is the truth and I am trying to ask you all to please be patient with me, Jesus isn't done with me yet. I don't need any of you to tell me what is obvious through the Scripture; instead, I just need you guys to support me and at least pray that one day I won't have to be so fixated on logic and reasoning when it comes to this relationship with Christ. I hopefully have explained where I am coming from for some of you (now that I have officially gone way off topic).
I'm not sure we are off-topic at all. But anyway, I hope you don't feel like when I address the comments that you make that it's the equivalent of not being patient. I post many times for the sake of those reading and not posting, not for the sake of those posting and not reading.

Sometimes your words concern me. Statements like "I don't need any of you to tell me what is obvious through the Scripture" or "I have to see rationality and reason behind everything or else I find it pointless". But we can discuss those later.

The bottom line is that you are asking Christians what proof they have and/or use and my proof is a blend of many different things, logic and reasoning being a part of my faith but not the crux.
 
Old 10-17-2008, 05:54 PM
 
Location: Blythe,Ga.
25 posts, read 29,308 times
Reputation: 14
Alpha8207, faith is the we just say so of credulity that in the end to which even the most fervid proponents of natural theology resort. It begs the question of God as there is no evidence for Him. Science, as Sydney Hook notes, is acquired knowledge while faith begs the question of being knowledge. Fath is seeing the world with blinders on.
Haazig, amen and indeed. Nero, so you self-brainwash?
Folks, read both " I don't have enough Faith to be an Atheist" and John Loftus's book on beocming an atheist after being such an outstanding apologist for so many years. There is an on-line response to the former, which shows its credulity. Read both theist and atheist writings as I ever do. On the theist side- Hick, Platinga, Swinburne, Geislar; on the other side- Martin ,Kai, Flew [ poor guy- demential], Steele , Angeles. Who are your favorite theist and atheist authors?
[ I tried to respond to your warning but was told there is no such recipient.Sorry, for the misplaced comments , which might be put here. Thanks.
Blessings and goodwill to all!

Last edited by skeptic griggsy; 10-17-2008 at 06:06 PM.. Reason: more commentary
 
Old 10-17-2008, 10:09 PM
 
Location: Murfreesboro, TN
3,528 posts, read 8,599,013 times
Reputation: 1130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nero777 View Post
A common thing I hear from most atheists is that they believe God doesn't exist simply because there is no evidence to prove His existence; they believe Him to be a fabrication of our minds and nothing more than something to fall back on during the tough times of our lives. How are you, as CHRISTIANS, certain that God exists? What evidence do you feel supports your view and why does it? I look forward to hearing from you.

I always believed God existed. My faith was reinforced as I watched my daughter being born and every time I look at her, I KNOW God exists. I never asked for proof, but if I ever needed it, my daughter is all the proof I need.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top