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Old 10-08-2008, 08:27 AM
 
7 posts, read 8,182 times
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ok, i feel this is not about science at all, it's more about philosophy.

Theists think God simply exists, not created by anyone.

But, if you think the same way, can things (e.g. moral, beauty, logic, universe and matter) just simply exist, not created by anyone?

I would like to know theists' argument to this. Thanks.
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Old 10-08-2008, 03:09 PM
 
3,124 posts, read 4,925,018 times
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We are finite beings. We are born and we die. We see others such as ourselves be born and die. We live in a finite world. Therefore, infinity is nearly impossible for us to grasp. Whether that infiinity be a creator or matter itself (or some combination thereof).

To us, everything must have a beginning and an end because that is our experience. Perhaps if our conciousness does pass into a life after death we will understand infinity as we will then be part of it.
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Old 10-08-2008, 03:27 PM
 
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Here's a thought.

Let's say god was made by god2. God2 was made by god3. God3 was made by god4 and so on to infinity...No matter how far you look back, you will never find a god simply existing for the sake of being the prime mover. Each and every single genie in the set of genies {g1,g2,...,gn} is made by another genie with no beginning ever defined.

Can things simply exist? MU! I think the proper question is "Is the norm non-existence?"
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Old 10-08-2008, 10:30 PM
 
7 posts, read 8,182 times
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Interesting, thank you guys for replies.

To Angel and The Dolphin,
I basically agree with you. but it's a really strange feeling if we imagine after we die the world just disappears. Because like you said, "We see others such as ourselves be born and die", and the world still continues.

To coosjoaquin,
I should have put it more clear. I'm just thinking, matter can transform from one form to another, but it is a fact that matter exists. It is against our daily experience that things can come to exist out of nothing. when a new thing is created, it is just new organization/form of existing matter, but no new matter is created. I guess the question here is, is the world made of matter or not?
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Old 10-08-2008, 11:30 PM
 
Location: Missouri, USA
789 posts, read 1,331,116 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yaosbesttime View Post
Interesting, thank you guys for replies.

To Angel and The Dolphin,
I basically agree with you. but it's a really strange feeling if we imagine after we die the world just disappears. Because like you said, "We see others such as ourselves be born and die", and the world still continues.


To coosjoaquin,
I should have put it more clear. I'm just thinking, matter can transform from one form to another, but it is a fact that matter exists. It is against our daily experience that things can come to exist out of nothing. when a new thing is created, it is just new organization/form of existing matter, but no new matter is created. I guess the question here is, is the world made of matter or not?
Mark Twain is responsible for one of my favorite quotes:
Quote:
I was dead for millions of years before I was born and it never inconvenienced me a bit.
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Old 10-10-2008, 11:28 AM
 
613 posts, read 1,268,827 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yaosbesttime View Post
ok, i feel this is not about science at all, it's more about philosophy.

Theists think God simply exists, not created by anyone.

But, if you think the same way, can things (e.g. moral, beauty, logic, universe and matter) just simply exist, not created by anyone?

I would like to know theists' argument to this. Thanks.
matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed, morals beauty and logic and the universe all are made up of matter and energy so yes they do "just exist". "Before" the universe was "created" time didnot start. Time is a result of the universe and doesn't rule over it. Therefor yes god did not start, was not created, and will not end
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Old 10-10-2008, 11:33 AM
 
Location: Texas
44,256 posts, read 64,200,054 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel and The Dolphin View Post
We are finite beings. We are born and we die. We see others such as ourselves be born and die. We live in a finite world. Therefore, infinity is nearly impossible for us to grasp. Whether that infiinity be a creator or matter itself (or some combination thereof).

To us, everything must have a beginning and an end because that is our experience. Perhaps if our conciousness does pass into a life after death we will understand infinity as we will then be part of it.

This is a great point. Humans tend to try to understand everything from our point of view and experience. Maybe everything does not work that way.
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Old 10-10-2008, 05:55 PM
 
2,630 posts, read 4,932,958 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yaosbesttime View Post
To coosjoaquin,
I should have put it more clear. I'm just thinking, matter can transform from one form to another, but it is a fact that matter exists. It is against our daily experience that things can come to exist out of nothing. when a new thing is created, it is just new organization/form of existing matter, but no new matter is created. I guess the question here is, is the world made of matter or not?
Um yes, the world is made out of matter but I'm confused by your question. First I thought you were asking if things could just exist without a reason and now it seems to be whether things can come out of nothing.
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Old 10-10-2008, 06:40 PM
 
2,957 posts, read 7,372,073 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coosjoaquin View Post
Can things simply exist? MU! I think the proper question is "Is the norm non-existence?"
Yes.
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Old 10-11-2008, 03:19 AM
 
378 posts, read 624,581 times
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If you left your room for 60 years, then came back to it, nothing new would be there. There may be more lint, but that's about it. There would not be tiny, complex, intricate machines developing. The same can be said for us. In that sense, God is real, and things simply don't just exist for nothing. I personally don't believe things could simply exist. There's a cause first.
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