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I refute you saying that I 'abhor' religion - I only abhor the effect a fundamentalist take on it can have, as so often, to justify narrow intolerance. It's as simple as that, and if a mellower sort of Christian such as yourself (can't think of a better word at the moment) has sincerely held beliefs, then I do respect that, even if I come across differently in the heat of an argument.
I think the problem is this forum, it brings the combative element out in the gentlest of us.
Blimey, Elizabeth, you certainly have me on the defensive tonight..!!
I was hoping you'd admit that I made at least some good points in my post, I certainly tried hard enough. I tried to get you to see, for instance, that with the best will in the world, you treating me as 'normal' is not something I should be expected to thank you for, it should be automatic, and not a conscious effort on your part. maybe 'condescension' is the wrong word for what we are talking about, but I used it in the sense that me being gay should not be an issue in this day and age.
I don't need to be reminded that you are a kind and honourable woman, but if we're sitting there over our coffee with me being conscious all the while that there is an important part of my make-up that you disapprove of - do you think either of us would be fully at ease? I don't think so.
So I believe you actually can win very easily, although it is you that needs to make the adjustment, and not me. In other words, until we can have an EQUAL regard for each other, there is always going to be an undercurrent of distrust. Stop saying that my way of life is a sin, accept me for who I am, and the problem will take care of itself.
No need, then, for any further disagreement, no more using scripture as a divisive tool, and we could get on with the far more important business of learning more profound things about each other's minds. So you can see why I resent (not hate) religion when it becomes an impediment to communication.
I think the underlying Elizabeth would be interesting enough without the overlay of theological dogma, and I would be very surprised if you were to be in any way diminished by becoming a humanist. (are you a Scorpio, by the way?).
Here endeth the second lesson -- Brian the Bad....
Brian, you have made some excellent points and as the saying goes 'I see where you are coming from'.
I know that there are some very unpleasant people about who would, no doubt, give you cause for concern in walking the streets at night. But I am also afraid to walk the streets at night in certain parts of the city. So being a victim of homophobia is not to have a monopoly on fear for one's safety. If London became like Greece at the height of its near compulsory homosexual way of life, you could still have your brains bashed in. The feral youths that prowl the highways and byways would still be there.
Now, back to the office. I think I have had a brainwave. I have worked alongside a few people (one in particular stands out) who were promiscuous (how quaint that word sounds, one hardly hears it mentioned today) in their sexual lives. I knew this and obviously took a dim view of it. BUT, we were friends and colleagues who got along well together. Off to the canteen for lunch, back to the ward, helping and supporting each other. In short, we were all friends. Which is how I would be with you. Can you see the comparison? I treated them normally because it never occurred to me to be any other way. I was not deigning to be gracious.
And in my scenario, you approach me and ask my opinion. Highly implausible. I might guess, or someone might mention your orientation, it would register with my brain cell, and then it would be business as usual. I might even go out and fetch you a ploughman's lunch if you wanted it and were feeling a bit peckish. I cannot change who I am but it has never got in the way with my fellow man and woman. I like to get on with everyone where it's possible. And I know it would be possible with you.
Just a little bit out Brian, I am a Libran. (Peace, harmony etc.)
I'm going to Evensong later and hope to meet up with a lovely chap I know.
The hymns are beautifully uplifting, and he sings nearly as well as I do!
I
Last edited by elizabeth7; 11-09-2008 at 10:03 AM..
Good morning JohnJLethal, I got some sleep, I hope it was enough so I can explain this so you will understand it, even if you don't accept it.
God is not some big bully sitting on a throne waiting to strike man down at any mistake. He is infinite and eternal mind. Since we have only a finite mind it is naturally very difficult for us to understand a infinite mind. The Creator created man to be His friend and companion. When He created us in the garden of eden the human race was as a newborn infant. Innocent and without sin. From that time He has worked with us on the level we have grown to. The human race has not yet grown into adulthood. So when we were a child He spoke to us as a child. When you see a small child about to put his hand in a fire the adult yells stop and grabs the child up.
Because the Creator knows what He has created us to be, the things that we do that would hinder us from being what He wants, He warns us against. But just like any small child we often do not understand why He is saying no, even though we have free will to disobey Him. It is never fun to have your hand slapped when you were just trying to have fun like any child would. Some times the things a parent has to do seems mean to the child. While God is love, He is also a good parent and does what is best for His children, even though we might disagree.
Wow, do they have the board game version of this? I would love it for Christmas, and what a great way to teach the children about God.
Now, back to the office. I think I have had a brainwave. I have worked alongside a few people (one in particular stands out) who were promiscuous (how quaint that word sounds, one hardly hears it mentioned today) in their sexual lives.
Promiscuous by whose standards? Promiscuity is subjective you know. There are those of us who really enjoy sex, and have had multiple sexual partners. What number does one have to achieve in order to reach your standard of promiscuity? More than one? More than three? And if they're spread out enough over a period of time, does that negate the promiscuity or does time span not matter?
Promiscuous by whose standards? Promiscuity is subjective you know. There are those of us who really enjoy sex, and have had multiple sexual partners. What number does one have to achieve in order to reach your standard of promiscuity? More than one? More than three? And if they're spread out enough over a period of time, does that negate the promiscuity or does time span not matter?
How times change. Until about thirty years ago, the word promiscuous was used to refer to someome who was not fussy about about having sex with anyone who took their fancy. When I was growing up on a working class council estate, anyone who had this reputation was regarded as a bit cheap. We hadn't heard of the expression 'multiple partners'. If we had we would take it you were talking about a dance session.
You're not the only one who enjoys sex. The only difference is that I prefer to keep it within my marriage. You have your standards and I have mine.
Last edited by elizabeth7; 11-09-2008 at 12:38 PM..
How times change. Until about thirty years ago, the word promiscuous was used to refer to someome who was not fussy about about having sex with anyone who took their fancy. When I was growing up on a working class council estate, anyone who had this reputation was regarded as a bit cheap. We hadn't heard of the expression 'multiple partners'. If we had we would take it you were talking about a dance session.
You're not the only one who enjoys sex. The only difference is that I prefer to keep it within my marriage. You have your standards and I have mine.
Gee, when I'm married I am monogamous. When I'm not married, I'm serially monogamous. I will never give up the right to have sex merely because I don't have a piece of paper in my hand saying I'm married to my significant other. I will also never get married without test-driving my partner first.
Your loss if you are celibate outside of marriage.
Gee, when I'm married I am monogamous. When I'm not married, I'm serially monogamous. I will never give up the right to have sex merely because I don't have a piece of paper in my hand saying I'm married to my significant other. I will also never get married without test-driving my partner first.
Your loss if you are celibate outside of marriage.
You can road-test as many vehicles as you like. It is of no interest to me.
I'm sure if was to get divorced, I would not die or wilt away through lack of sex. I have so many other ventures to put my mind and talents to. If sex is the be-all and end-all for you, then you have my deepest sympathy.
You can road-test as many vehicles as you like. It is of no interest to me.
I'm sure if was to get divorced, I would not die or wilt away through lack of sex. I have so many other ventures to put my mind and talents to. If sex is the be-all and end-all for you, then you have my deepest sympathy.
Nice warping of my words there. But then again, you do that so well.
You can road-test as many vehicles as you like. It is of no interest to me.
I'm sure if was to get divorced, I would not die or wilt away through lack of sex. I have so many other ventures to put my mind and talents to. If sex is the be-all and end-all for you, then you have my deepest sympathy.
There is nothing wrong with enjoying sex outside of the biblical standards you would like to push on us.
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