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I guess you really don't read anyone's posts do you...Local floods Campbell ....Many areas of the world suffer floods almost every year...Your link would have more credibility if the year all these local floods occurred was mentioned.
Also the other link about the CIA releasing "new" Noah's ark documents....That wasn't even good for a laugh....I was sorely disappointed.
Very good good point, Montana! I'd not caught that one. When the water levels were still @ 15,000 feet ABOVE mean sea level (AMSL), you take a look at the mountain in question, Mt. Ararat, and that would have been a very tiny island indeed. Why not wait a few more months until those millions of animals would have somewhere to be able go. Of course, that's ignoring several otgher problems.
But let's go with being let off at 15,000 feet elevation...
It's impossible that they, even the fantasy 35,000 of them (not the necessary 600 million of them. BTW, you still haven't addressed that issue either, but we all understand why not), could have survived being let off on a lonely, tiny sharply angular, rocky, vegetation-free fresh-water-free spike of an island, surrounded by ever-stormy seas, with nothing to drink (all the snow would of course have melted off during this flood event).
So.
1. Not enough room on the tiny rock island when the water is still @ a few hundred feet short of 15,000 feet.
2. No food.
3. No fresh water.
4. Precipitously dangerous landscape.
5. Not enough time to wait out the evaporation or that fantasy mass of water surrounding them.
6. Not enough oxygen at that altitude (ever hear of altitude sickness, Tom?)
7. All the vegetation at lower levels killed off and unable to reproduce if ever, but certainly not for years and years. (Look at Mt. St. Helens for a good example. Ten years to recover even the basic vegetation.)
...and a mere, oh let's say, 10 to 12 months (or longer...how long to evaporate an Earth-sized ocean?) wait until they could even possibly get back down to the original ground level. Which, of course, would be devasted vegetatively for about two to four years from salt saturation and drowning of the plants and their seeds, and salt infusion into the soil, and leaching out of key nutrients... and... and...
Details details. God works in mysterious ways, eh?
Ah yes....There's insufficient oxygen at elevations over 8000 feet for man or anything else to survive. So we added "No Oxygen" to the list of unavailable key elements for life. Man gets woozy after about 5 minutes at 8500 feet, hence the requirement for Oxygen masks in higher altitude planes.
Oooops; the fable writers didn't know about such stuff back then, but we do, now don't we, Tom? Or don't we?
And again, Tom, I'm not going to serve up any more links about geological studies you can then ignore or dismiss with re-cycled nonsense. I and others have posted them too often, and you've ignored them. Go find them yourself. Suffice to say aerial surveys done in 1947 hardly count as valid any more, except in that atrociously outdated and constantly erroneous link you keep going to. I'd be dropping that one as your "reliable source", Tom. Too embarrassing for you!
Suffice to say, as I noted, Mt. Ararat's all been disproved, geologically with the highest tech equipment available in the '90s. The studies are avaiable, and you don't have to throw in some nonsense about the CIA anymore either. The only people hiding the truth are the fundies and Turkish government, at least until the gig's completely up. No old wood parts. No cages. No good photos. No proof at all, except from an old Christian fool.
But several inescapable logic points (see numbered items above)
And some good geo-studies that showed only rocks. Nothing else.
Add to that the numbered items above, which I know you won't address (because even you'd have to admit they'd die with no food, no water, no oxygen [that one alone...], no room to move around, no nothing!).
And what do we have? A complete hoax, intended only as a fable to teach some lesson to the uneducated masses (tho' I can't imagine what that lesson might be, unless it was good old fear-mongering).
Done. The Ark disproved, finally, and inarguably. Of course the fable lives on, as it should.
Last edited by rifleman; 06-12-2009 at 07:23 PM..
Reason: changes!
The reason that fundies HAVE TO believe is because the reality of the worldwide flood forms a vital part of the belief system of conservative Christians -- particularly those who are Creation Scientists. They have based their theories of astrophysics, geology, paleontology, linguistics, and anthropology upon the creation, flood and Tower of Babel stories in the book of Genesis.
Noah must have been a dopey captain, maybe comparable to the one who steered the Exxon Valdez aground in Alaska, causing the huge oil spill. Maybe god should have given Noah some basics in navigating a ship before the rains.
Instead of junking the ark on a remote mountain top, why didn't Noah make a trip around the world to deliver all the animals to their appropriate places? It sure would have spared them all long journeys. After that Noah could have left the Ark on some beach to be admired for future generations.
So three USA tribes have a flood story. There were 500 tribes. What about the other 497? My nation has no such story. Negative on the same details as the Bible Ghostrider. Besides, I already answered you concerning how the different people could have a flood story. Local floods christianized and cultural contamination. But hey, I'm just an Indian, what do I know about my own people?
The fact is Christians in the 1500s who heard the stories from the Ica's thought it was the Devil who put the story of the flood in their oral traditions to confuse them. It was not just because of Christianized cultural contamination.
And according to George Catlen who was a very famous painter and writer who focused on American Indian cluture in the 1800s. He stated there were no less than 120 indian tribes who spoke of the flood story in their traditions. It should be obvious, that there was not a wide indepth study of which tribes had such a tradition. Yet there is enought evidence out there to know that such traditions did exist. And Catlen himself knew of at least 120 tribes where this was evident.
You are again adding your ideas as fact....You should be ashamed of yourself. The floods in the myths from around the world did not all happen around the same time at all.
The people in distant lands did not make up their flood stories, but actually were flooded out for various reasons....Local floods Campbell, no matter how much you want to spin them to be world wide. For instance the Haida flood happened from 12,000 to 9,000 years ago after the end of the last ice age.
If they were just flooded out, why do so many of them state that the flood was caused by God, and He told a man and his family to build a boat and fill it with animals, and this boat would save their life until the flood ended. What kind of local flood would require you to build a ship in advance and fill it with animals. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT, THIS IS WHAT IS RECORDED IN THESE ORAL TRADITIONS. Their accounts speak of Gods involvement, and His instruction to build a ship. And this story is repeated over and over. Why do we here the same story? How do you spin so many people all coming up with the same story from so many cultures? And often many of them giving the same details found in the Bible.
Here are a few native American flood myths...No mention of a boat, or god and they sure don't resemble the biblical myth. There are many more, but I was unable to find one that does.
Micmac
Kuloscap defeated the cruel Ice Giants at various contests. Then he stomped on the ground, and foaming water rushed down from the mountains. He sang a song which changed how everyone looks, and the Ice Giants became large fish.
Netsilik Eskimo
A flood killed all animals and humans except for two Shaman. They copulated, and their offspring included the world's first women.
Kootenay (southeast British Columbia):
A small gray bird, despite the prohibition of her husband (a chiken hawk), bathed in a certain lake. There she was seized and raped by a giant in the lake. The bird's husband shot the monster, who swallowed up all the water. The woman pulled out the arrow, and the water rushed forth in a torrent.
Algonquin
Long ago, when men had become evil, the powerful serpent Maskanako came and fought with them. The serpent brought the snake-water rushing, spreading everywhere, destroying everything. Then the waters ran off, and the great evil went away through a cave.
Northern California Coast:
Humans and animals were all washed away by a flood which covered everything. Later, the gods recreated them.
Tsetsaut:
A man and his wife went up the hills to hunt marmots. There, they saw that the water was still rising. They enclosed their children, along with supplies, in hollow trees. All other people drowned.
Yuma:
Komashtam'ho caused a great rain and started to flood out the large dangerous animals, but he was persuaded that people needed some of the animals for food. He evaporated the waters with a great fire, turning the land to desert in the process.
Navajo:
For their sins, the gods expelled the Insect People from the first world by sending a wall of water from all directions. The Insect People flew up into the second world. Later, in the fourth world, descendents of these people were likewise punished. They escaped the floodwaters by climbing into a fast-growing reed. Cicada dug an entrance into the fifth world, where people live today.
Real-life locations, real-life people, and real-life wars between enemies it describes. For the stories of David and the battles he fought were confirmed. Nothing found has proven the Bible to be a fairytale.
Nothing found suggests that your god is real or any of the prophecies, miracles or catastrophes contained in The Bible took place.
OTOH, there's mountains of proof that your Bible was plagiarized off of earlier myths and that your desert tribal god evolved from earlier pantheons of greater civilizations.
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The story of David and Israels two kingdoms, and the enemies he fought have been confirmed by (FACTS).
Irrelevant
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And there is far more evidence for a Global flood, than evidence for the universe being small and compact.
No, there isn't. There's not one IOTA of evidence for a global flood. There is well.. a UNIVERSE of evidence for the big bang and expansion of the universe.
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And that is why almost every culture on earth has in their oral traditions the story of the global flood.
Which doesn't change the fact that a global flood NEVER occured or that The Bible is NOT the original source of the flood myth.
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So sorry; the gig's up this time!
