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Of course you're not going to answer, you are aware that if you do, you will make my point.
I have no idea what your point is because you won't state it. Say it already. I asked you this yesterday and I'm asking you again. I'm starting to think that you're not really sure what your point is and you're hopeful to glean something of it by a conversation on the net. Out with it already.
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The fact is, we do exist and there IS a cause of some sort.
Sure. I haven't seen anyone deny a cause. You probably think there's a deity that brought us into existence because we're all just so darn special.
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Looks like a short conversation tonight. We're not connecting in the honesty area.
Really, the only one being dishonest here is you. You refuse to make a point.
I have no idea what your point is because you won't state it. Say it already. I asked you this yesterday and I'm asking you again. I'm starting to think that you're not really sure what your point is and you're hopeful to glean something of it by a conversation on the net. Out with it already.
Sure. I haven't seen anyone deny a cause. You probably think there's a deity that brought us into existence because we're all just so darn special.
Really, the only one being dishonest here is you. You refuse to make a point.
I believe there is a deity because it makes the most sense. If there were a better alternative, I would chuck it all in an instant.
You appear to have no objection to the law of causality.
If there was ever a time when there was nothing, how could anything possibly exist now?
I believe there is a deity because it makes the most sense. If there were a better alternative, I would chuck it all in an instant.
You appear to have no objection to the law of causality.
If there was ever a time when there was nothing, how could anything possibly exist now?
Deities make sense to you. Obviously, that's not the case for me. When I consider the concept of eternity, I really can't wrap my head around it, be it matter or a deity. As others point out, who made the deity^100000000?
I suspect that you believe that the diety has always existed. If you're capable of reconciling that than it sholdn't be a far leap for you to grapple with eteranl matter either. Again, eternity is tough for me to understand.
OTOH, abiogenesis is way easier to consider than creation via a deity. To be clear, abiogenesis is contained in a time line so I find it more manageable.
As others point out, who made the deity^100000000?
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Originally Posted by Braunwyn
I suspect that you believe that the diety has always existed. If you're capable of reconciling that than it sholdn't be a far leap for you to grapple with eteranl matter either. Again, eternity is tough for me to understand.
OTOH, abiogenesis is way easier to consider than creation via a deity. To be clear, abiogenesis is contained in a time line so I find it more manageable.
You tell me. Is matter is eternal?
As far a the age old question: "then what caused God?" The law of causality states that every effect has a cause.
As far a the age old question: "then what caused God?" The law of causality states that every effect has a cause.
Ok, than this begs your question. And on and on it goes. If you can conceive of an eternal god than surely you can conceive of eternal matter. Given that there is physical evidence of matter (redundant, I know) than I don't know why I'm the only diety skeptic in this conversation.
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Originally Posted by tigetmax24
Braunwyn,
Sorry, I have to scoot out for tonight.
Perhaps we can continue tomorrow? - Thanks
Have a good night. I'll post this vid I was watching again, at a later date, but I want to throw it out there now because it's so interesting.
Ok, than this begs your question. And on and on it goes. If you can conceive of an eternal god than surely you can conceive of eternal matter. Given that there is physical evidence of matter (redundant, I know) than I don't know why I'm the only diety skeptic in this conversation.
Have a good night. I'll post this vid I was watching again, at a later date, but I want to throw it out there now because it's so interesting.
Don’t get me wrong. I’m not over here looking for an opportunity to come down on you for believing in the eternality of matter.
My point is that whatever we choose to believe about the cause of our existence, will involve speculation - or faith in the plausibility of the speculative assertion.
I just don’t agree that chance evolving eternal existent matter would make more sense than existence of a transcendent eternal being - you no doubt would disagree.
Science confirms that everything we know thus far - about all known objects - is that the essence of their being is dependent. Everything has a beginning and everything has an end and none chooses it’s own beginning or ending. I’m not quoting scriptural text here - this is what science/cosmology demonstrates.
I would also assert that our ability to BE (dependent being) naturally and logically indicates that somewhere there must be a being that holds the very essence of BEING within itself.
My point is that whatever we choose to believe about the cause of our existence, will involve speculation - or faith in the plausibility of the speculative assertion.
Again, speculation and faith are not synonyms. A guess includes doubt, otherwise it's not a guess. Faith is being completely sure, which means it's not a guess. It may or may not be correct, but to the person with faith, there is no question, it is correct; otherwise it is not true faith.
I think you would be insulting your own faith by comparing it to the tentativeacceptance of the best scientific explanations so far. Many people including myself are doubtful of unproven things, and are flexible enough to change our minds in light of evidence and testing. Doubt and flexibility are excluded by faith, yet are two things that are vital for advancement in knowledge. If you have the same doubt and flexibility in your belief in God, then you do not have faith.
Did you even read my post a couple pages back? Here it is again, so you don't have to page back:
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Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend
If the person making the guess acknowledges that it's a guess in the first place, the person obviously doesn't have faith in the answer. Don't forget, faith means trust and absence of doubt, and guessing generally involves a lot of doubt. When I know something is true, as most theists claim about god existing, I don't consider it a guess.
For example, I don't consider it just a guess that I would feel pain if I pinched myself. However, if put money on a number on a roulette wheel, I would have serious doubts that the ball would land on my number, meaning I would not have faith that it would absolutely land on my number.
There's a chance god exists, and an infinite number of other possibilities too, but we never get to "spin the wheel" and find out which is the actual answer (until possibly after death). Some people are absolutely sure that their number will be the one the ball lands on, but not so for most atheists.
It is my guess that god does not exist. I have no idea if god exists, but the stories people tell me are not convincing, just as the stories about Egyptian or Greek gods are not convincing. So my best guess is that god does not exist, and I'm open for more information. Guesses are not faith. I do not have faith in god's existence, and I also do not have faith in god's nonexistence, since it is a guess.
I followed the link to the page about evolution myths. It's not surprising that evolution wasn't discussed at all. Too bad.
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Don’t get me wrong. I’m not over here looking for an opportunity to come down on you for believing in the eternality of matter.
I thought we established that it is you that believes in eternal matter...eternal anything, and for me, the jury is still out.
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My point is that whatever we choose to believe about the cause of our existence, will involve speculation - or faith in the plausibility of the speculative assertion.
I just don’t agree that chance evolving eternal existent matter would make more sense than existence of a transcendent eternal being - you no doubt would disagree.
The differences between looking into abiogenesis vs god creation is that the hypotheses offered IRT abiogenesis gives us something substantial to consider (actual matter i.e., compounds, elements, conditions, etc) where god creation, wearing its finest suit, only offers magic dust as variable as any person considering it.
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Science confirms that everything we know thus far - about all known objects - is that the essence of their being is dependent. Everything has a beginning and everything has an end and none chooses it’s own beginning or ending. I’m not quoting scriptural text here - this is what science/cosmology demonstrates.
I'm not sure how this points to god creation. If anything, it's a hallmark of evolution, which the link you provide confuses with abiogenesis.
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I would also assert that our ability to BE (dependent being) naturally and logically indicates that somewhere there must be a being that holds the very essence of BEING within itself.
If this is the case, than this being is severely flawed. And this contradicts Christian doctrine at least.
Props to LogicIsYourFriend for responding so well to your post.
I've never asserted that they are. I basically asserted that the choice to believe in the veracity of speculation is by faith. If I was not articulate enough, I apologize.
"A guess includes doubt, otherwise it's not a guess. Faith is being completely sure, which means it's not a guess. It may or may not be correct, but to the person with faith, there is no question, it is correct; otherwise it is not true faith."
Sorry, but that is complete hogwash. It is not logically possible to have faith without doubt. Think about it.
"I think you would be insulting your own faith by comparing it to thetentative acceptance of the best scientific explanations so far."
No, there is nothing insulting to my own faith. I'm trying to call it the way I see it. In my opinion, there is nothing at all mystical or deeply spiritual about faith . However, I understand that many who consider themselves to be deeply spiritual would probably disagree.
"Many people including myself are doubtful of unproven things, and are flexible enough to change our minds in light of evidence and testing."
You seem to assert that I lack such flexibility. What have I stated/posted that would give you such an impression?
"Doubt and flexibility are excluded by faith, yet are two things that are vital for advancement in knowledge. If you have the same doubt and flexibility in your belief in God, then you do not have faith."
Faith can and indeed should be REASONED faith. Faith that includes logic and weighing of available evidence. However, if one chooses to place their BLIND faith in truth, they are still on par with those placing reasonable faith in that same truth.
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