Christian Univeralism (disciples, contradiction, pray, God)

[ShanaBrown]

I think Shawn cover it pretty good in his post.

Maybe to you he did, ILNC, but I see several problems.

I would like to add Jude 1:7 "And don't forget the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and their neighboring towns, which were filled with sexual immorality and every kind of sexual perversion. Those cities were destroyed by fire and are a warning of the eternal fire that will punish all who are evil".

Sodom is to one day be restored to its former estate according to the prophet Ezekiel.

Unbelievers go to hell because they are incompatible with Heaven.

I believe that God will make them compatible with Him when He becomes all in all as described in 1 Corinthians 15. Many will experience hell but God in His righteous judgments will bring forth judgment to victory.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 "They will be punished with everlasting destruction, FOREVER SEPARATED FROM THE LORD and from His glorious power".

They will be punished with age - during destruction

9who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,

People who are separated from God for eternity no longer have any hope for salvation.

I disagree that people will be separated from God for all of eternity. All things are to be reunited in Jesus Christ according to Ephesians 1.

God bless.

[ShanaBrown]

Anywaaaaay, I must turn in. If anyone is interested in learning more about Christian Universalism, here are a couple of good sites. God bless.

http://www.mercifultruth.com/eternity.htm

http://gods-kingdom-ministries.org/b...ions/index.cfm

[Miss Shawn_2828]

As I have said before I don't see you as the enemy. We just believe in two different things when it comes down to the bible.

When I read the bible I don't see any proof to what you are saying, but I'm also not attacking you on what you believe also.

Matthew 10:33 But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

As we read scripture we are to take it as it is. When Jesus says this, he does not say that the person will eventually get into heaven, He says that He will deny Him before the Father. We can't put our input on what we think will happen or what we think that He means. Jesus said that He would deny somone, not me putting it in scripture.

Also if you read in the translation that you use for

John 3:14-18 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. So does this mean age-during mean on temporary. Jesus came to give us everlasting life, life with Him forever or if you prefer life with Jesus age-during. So, if you want to use age-during then that is ok, because it does not change the context of scripture or the word.



Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during' . It is obvious what the word means in this scripture.

Jesus says to everyone come to me to have life. But everyone will not come to Jesus, He said that.

John 5:39-40 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.


Now I give you the same scripture in YLT versions.
Ye search the Writings, because ye think in them to have life age-during, and these are they that are testifying concerning me;
40and ye do not will to come unto me, that ye may have life; As you see in this version age-during is in the place of eternal life, but means the exact same.



Jesus gives everyone the invitation to come to Him, but He says that you refuse to come to me to have life, so not everyone will choose life.

God give us free-will to choose Him or another path. Jesus died on the cross to bring us back to God, but not everyone will choose Him, even Jesus said that.

Jesus did acomplish HIs mission, because He gave us away to God which we did not have, because of What Adam and Eve did in the garden. Jesus restored a broken fellowship.


You ask " Do you not even believe that God who has all power is able to convince all of their need for Him and that He is able to win all hearts to Himself" Yes, I believe that God is greater than evil, but Jesus whom is God, said that there will be people who will refuse to come to Him to have life. He also said that if any deny Him, He will deny them in the presence of the Father.

So what is the difference when Jesus is saying that He is giving you life Age-during, then Hell being Age-during. There is not difference.

[Miss Shawn_2828]

Once again it was nice talking with you, goodnight.

[ShanaBrown]

As I have said before I don't see you as the enemy. We just believe in two different things when it comes down to the bible.

When I read the bible I don't see any proof to what you are saying, but I'm also not attacking you on what you believe also.

Thank you shawn for not calling me an enemy, but to those who do, it is okay anyway. God knows my heart and knows where my belief comes from.

Matthew 10:33 But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

As we read scripture we are to take it as it is. When Jesus says this, he does not say that the person will eventually get into heaven, He says that He will deny Him before the Father. We can't put our input on what we think will happen or what we think that He means. Jesus said that He would deny somone, not me putting it in scripture.

Jesus will deny them before the Father. He does not say that this is equated to eternal punishment. Peter denied Jesus also. Jesus also says He will draw all men to Himself and the apostle Paul teaches that all are to reunited in Him. We must consider all of the scriptures, their context, and how they relate to one another.

Also if you read in the translation that you use for

John 3:14-18 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. So does this mean age-during mean on temporary. Jesus came to give us everlasting life, life with Him forever or if you prefer life with Jesus age-during. So, if you want to use age-during then that is ok, because it does not change the context of scripture or the word.

Life of the ages, eonian life. It is the life of knowing Jesus and the Father today, the life of having a relationship with them. God is living in us today. We have aionios/eonian life today in this age and in the age to come. It is the highest blessed life in this age and in the age to come. We will be given immortality in the future when our bodies are raised incorruptible.

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during' . It is obvious what the word means in this scripture.

Life during the ages.

Jesus says to everyone come to me to have life. But everyone will not come to Jesus, He said that.

John 5:39-40 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to [SIZE=4]come to me[/to have life.]Jesus gives everyone the invitation to come to Him, but He says that you refuse to come to me to have life, so not everyone will choose life.
]God give us free-will to choose Him or another path. Jesus died on the cross to bring us back to God, but not everyone will choose Him, even Jesus said that.
Jesus did acomplish HIs mission, because He gave us away to God which we did not have, because of What Adam and Eve did in the garden. Jesus restored a broken fellowship.

Everyone will not have life during the ages, eonian life, the life of knowing God. Most will not. Eventually all will come to know Him. The true light which enlightens every man has come into the world.

You ask " Do you not even believe that God who has all power is able to convince all of their need for Him and that He is able to win all hearts to Himself" Yes, I believe that God is greater than evil, but Jesus whom is God, said that there will be people who will refuse to come to Him to have life. He also said that if any deny Him, He will deny them in the presence of the Father.

If God has the power to convince and win all and if it is His will that all be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth, there is no way that it will not be accomplished. God is able. He is greater than evil, deception, ignorance, rebellion, darkness, you name it. No heart is too hard for God to penetrate. All the ends of the earth will remember and return to the Lord. Do you see that? He has already said that every knee will bow and that every tongue will confess Him and this willingly and in adoration/worship. We serve a mighty God. God bless.

[Miss Shawn_2828]

Originally Posted by ShanaBrown

Thank you shawn for not calling me an enemy, but to those who do, it is okay anyway. God knows my heart and knows where my belief comes from.



Jesus will deny them before the Father. He does not say that this is equated to eternal punishment. Peter denied Jesus also. Jesus also says He will draw all men to Himself and the apostle Paul teaches that all are to reunited in Him. We must consider all of the scriptures, their context, and how they relate to one another.

Life of the ages, eonian life. It is the life of knowing Jesus and the Father today, the life of having a relationship with them. We have aionios/eonian life today in this age and in the age to come. It is the highest blessed life in this age and in the age to come. We will be giving immortality in the future when our bodies are raised incorruptible.



Life during the ages.




Everyone will not have life during the ages, eonian life, the life of knowing God. Most will not. Eventually all will come to know Him. The true light which enlightens every man has come into the world.




If God has the power to convince and win all and if it is His will that all be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth, there is no way that it will not be accomplished. God is able. He is greater than evil, deception, ignorance, rebellion, darkness, you name it. No heart is too hard for God to penetrate. All the ends of the earth will remember and return to the Lord. Do you see that? He has already said that every knee will bow and that every tongue will confess Him and this willingly and in adoration/worship. We serve a mighty God. God bless.

Sorry I just don't believe in what you believe in, because the bible does not say eventually into heaven. When I find it in scripture then I will convert, but until then, I have to stick to scripture.

[ShanaBrown]

Shawn, I believe the Bible does say this. I am looking at the scriptures as a whole, understanding that God is love, just, merciful, patient, compassionate, good, righteous, has all power. I believe that He will overcome evil with good and I understand the love bears all things. I am not trying to get you to convert, just sharing where I am coming from and also to share with others who may interested. Have a good night too. Thank you for the discussion. God bless.

[Birdy_56]

Originally Posted by shawn_2828

I'm still waiting on your scripture that says that Hell is on temporary!! Because I have yet to find it.

Shawn: it is quite evident there are many things you have not found as yet. Be not be dismayed, it only requires the Son of God to open your understanding to understand the Scriptures.

I will gladly repeat: death and hell are ultimately consummated in the Lake of Jehovah's breath radiating with theion rooted in Theos. In the end, laddy, the whole of created life is to be released from the imprisonment and chains of slaves. "The whole of created life shall be delivered..." Not might be, or could be, the whole of created life (the ktisis) "shall be delivered." This is in total agreement with God's sacred purpose to consummate the all (the ta pantve) in Christ Jesus our Lord...the all, the ta pavnte, the whole within the heavens, the whole within the earth.

The question of all questions is essentially this: can evil finally triumph over Good?

If evil ultimately triumphs

If we answer affirmatively with the popular creed of unending evil and sin, we are practically falling into dualism; if we reply negatively, we are teaching the Restitution of all things. The Calvinist settled the question by, in fact, affirming that if evil triumphs it is because God so orders, that is, because God decrees to evil an eternal existence; thus saving or trying to save God's omnipotence, but at no less a cost than that of blackening His character, yes, of virtually making Him a partner in evil.

God Satisfied With Endless Disobedience?

But the popular creed of despair and unending curse saves neither the omnipotence of God, nor yet preserves His character. Sin, the one thing most utterly hateful in His sight, He tolerates forever and ever, poisoning and defiling His works, and defying His power--satisfied, if in this brief life He cannot have obedience and righteousness--satisfied with endless disobedience and sin hereafter.

A Baffled Saviour A Victorious Devil?

He appears before all creation as trying to dislodge sin, only to fail; as sending His divine Son to save all men in order that He may return rejected, baffled, vanquished. And so the curtain falls on the great drama of creation and redemption, presenting such a picture as this- a baffled Saviour, a victorious devil, a ruined creation, sin triumphant- and so to continue forever- a heaven wholly base, a hell wholly miserable.

God's Essence

Strong as these words are, they are not strong enough, for the horrors and the contradictions of the popular creed alike defy description. And these horrors are taught, these contradictions are believed in the face of the plainest teaching of God's two revelations, His primary revelation to our moral sense, His written revelation in Holy Scripture. From the first page to the last the Bible is the story on one who is our Father- one whose 'wrath', and 'fire', and 'judgement', are at once most real, and yet one and all are the expressions of that essential LOVE which He is- One who being Almighty is sending His Son to assured victory, to reconcile to Himself all things, 'whatsover and wheresoever they be.'

Vain Attempts

I know how eagerly men strive to save the popular creed, by diminishing the number of the lost, by softening their torments, by asserting their annihilation, etc. What are all these but to many tacit confessions that men everywhere feel it impossible to maintain the creed still generally professed? What are they but in fact so many vain attempts to disguise the awful fact of God's defeat, to hide if it may be the victory of the evil one? For so long as sin lingers in a single heart, so long as a single child of the Great Parent perishes eternally, whether annihilated, or sent to hell, so long is the Cross a failure, and the devil practically victor.

Christ Triumphant

HERE

And HERE

And HERE

The whole of created life shall be delivered from the bondage/slavery of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

[Birdy_56]

Originally Posted by ShanaBrown

. I am looking at the scriptures as a whole, understanding that God is love, just, merciful, patient, compassionate, good, righteous, has all power. I believe that He will overcome evil with good and I understand the love bears all things.

The Prophet Zephaniah

The Lord will be terrible unto them; for He will famish all the gods of the earth, and men shall worship Him, every one from his place and all the isles of the heathen.....Indeed, My decision is to gather nations, to assemble kingdoms, to pour out all My burning anger; for all the earth will be devoured by the fire of My zeal. For then I will give to the peoples purified lips, that all of them may call upon the Name of the Lord, to serve Him with one consent, shoulder to shoulder.

Please Note:

1. All men, "every one of them", shall worship the Lord.

2. All the isles of the "heathen" shall worship Him.

3. All nations shall be gathered, all kingdoms assembled.

4. All nations & all kingdoms shall experience the burning of the Lord and the devouring of His fire.

5. The devouring of the Lord is linked with purified lips that call upon the Name of the Lord.

6. All mankind, "all of them", standing shoulder to shoulder, with one consent, shall serve Him.

I cannot tell how He will win the nations,
How He will claim His earthly heritage,
How satisfy the needs and aspirations
Of East and West, of sinner and of sage.
But this I know, all flesh shall see His glory,
And He shall reap the harvest He has sown,
And some glad day His sun shall shine in splendor
When He the Savior, Savior of the world is known.

I cannot tell how all the lands shall worship,
When, at His bidding, every storm is stilled,
Or who can say how great the jubilation
When all the hearts of men with love are filled.
But this I know, the skies will thrill with rapture,
And myriad, myriad human voices sing,
And earth to Heaven, and Heaven to earth, will answer:
At last the Savior, Savior of the world is King!

Sing It HERE

[Birdy_56]

Originally Posted by shawn_2828

God give us free-will to choose Him or another path. Jesus died on the cross to bring us back to God, but not everyone will choose Him, even Jesus said that.

Shawn: listen carefully to the words of the Master!

"You did not choose Me, I chose....."