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Shawn, my understanding of hell is that it is not a literal place and I don't believe that it is literal fire. I believe that it is something that people will experience-the torment, the anguish, that pain when they are face to face with the truth of their spiritual condition. It involves destruction, loss, shame. God turns man to destruction and says "Return, O children of men." (Psalm 90:3) The theme of destruction and restoration runs through the scriptures. The creation, all of creation is to be delivered (Romans 8) and this tells me that hell is not a permanent condition. Jesus Himself is to fill all things and if you believe that hell is a literal place, then Jesus will even fill hell. If the creation is to be delivered no one will remain lost forever or in a hellish experience forever. God bless.
Some years ago I was in a discussion with a Presbyterian minister who had a negative response to a word I had posted regarding the dual meaning encapsulating some of our Lord's words. I had quoted a word from the man of spirit Andrew Jukes regarding this very thing. He writes....
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It is surely a significant fact, that the two words in Hebrew to express 'destruction', signify also, and are used to express, 'perfection'; and the word for sacrifice by fire in Hebrew is the same as that for bride and wife, 'kalal' (to complete, perfect, make complete, make perfect). By this double sense a veil covers the letter, veiling yet revealing God's purpose; for His purpose to the creature is through destruction to perfect it, and by fire to make it a bride unto the Lord. For a kindred reason some of the angels are called Seraphim, that is 'burning ones'; for like the Lord, whose throne is flames of fire (Daniel 7:9,10) they also are as fire, as it is written, 'He makes His angels spirits, His messengers a flame of fire' (Hebr. 1:7 & Psl. 104:4)
In fact, Andrew Jukes is absolutely correct. I have found over 20 distinct words for destruction in the Hebrew text, a number of which demonstrate this very theme.
For example, tamiym/ `ymt means to be consumed, destroyed, exhausted and spent, and also to be made perfect and made complete. And then there is Shebar rooted in Shabar which means to be broken or crushed, linked with breakout & causing to bring to birth. Ah, the ways of God are such a glorious mystery!
Birdy, I love this passage of scripture in which God says that He will accomplish all His good pleasure. He will have all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. If He intends for this to happen, no one will be able to stop Him, not even the most rebellious heart. It's about God's work in the creation, not about God yielding to our darkened minds. It is not thank you God, but no thank you. We have temporary, limited, restricted wills and if we reject Him today it is because we are blinded and deceived. The rejection is temporary. We are not the masters of our own eternal fate. We were created to glorify our Creator. All things were created for the Lord and to Him all things return.
Isaiah 46:9-11
Remember the former things, those of long ago; IamGod, and there is no other; IamGod, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do.
I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.
What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do.
Now, what creature can tell the Creator, no you can't?
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Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (helkuo) all men unto me. (John 12:31)This he said, signifying what death he should die.Jesus did not die for Christians alone. If any man sin we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ. He is the propitiation for our sins, but not ours only, the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2), and by his own words, He will draw all men to his death if he is lifted up (on the cross). He was lifted up on the cross, so He will drag all men to the judgment of the world. He will "drag all men to the death he died."
The Greek word for "draw" in the above scripture is helkuo. According to the word meaning "to draw, drag off." In order for Christ to submerge all men in the death of the sinful flesh, is there any doubt that he must drag them (even if kicking and screaming) to him, to the death that he died? Do fish want to be caught? What happens when you bring a fish out of the depths of the water? They flop around in protest. They must be dragged into the boat by a stronger hand. Peter is instructed to DRAG the fish into the boat. Sooner or later, Christ would make Peter a fisher of men (Matt 4:19). Jesus himself will drag all men into the death of their sinful flesh. He will drag them to the extermination of "the body of this death." - Seth Tipton
But many don't like this. They think that it is wrong and unloving. They think that it is unloving for God to find and deliver a lost person, to save a drowning man. They believe that God's will is subject to their wills. They believe that God cannot make or force anyone do anything. Drawing someone, convincing someone, and subjecting someone suggests to me some type of force. Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess. This is a declaration of God. This will not be an option, but the wonderful thing is that this will be done willingly and in worship. The judgments of God have a higher purpose. God will bring about a change in the hearts and minds of His creatures. They will say of Him, only in the Lord have I righteousness and strength. They will remember and return to Him. (Psalms 22:27) God's will is the only Supreme will in the Universe and as Jesus prayed, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."
God sent Jesus on a mission to be the Savior of the world. Jesus was not only sent to make a way. He was sent to be the Savior of the world.
God bless.
Shana: there are a lot of little wills trotting over this terrestial ball, but one Will who has purposed that the all will be consummated in His dear Son. That Will prevails!
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He has made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in heaven and things on earth, to find their one head in Him.
And you too, who in Him were made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will.
This is good and pleasing to God our saviour, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.
"Who wills all men" = ov pantav anqrwpouv qelei swqhnai
Who will have all men to be saved (ov pantav anqrwpouv qelei swqhnai) Literally, who willeth all men, etc. As who, or seeing that he, giving the ground of the previous statement. Prayer to God for all is acceptable to him, because he wills the salvation of all. Qelei willeth, marking a determinate purpose. -Dr. Marvin Vincent-
Qelei= Marking a determinate purpose
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I can't love because I am ordered-least of all can I love One who seems only to make me miserable here to torture me hereafter. Show me that He is good, that He is loveable, and I shall love Him without being told. But does any preacher show this? He may say that God is good, but he shows Him to be very bad; he may say that God is 'Love', but he shows him to be hate, worse than any hate of man. As the Persian poet says; ‘If God punishes me for doing evil by doing me evil, how is he better than I?’ And it is hard to answer, for certainly the worst man would hardly torture his enemy, if he could, for ever. And unless God has a scheme that every man is to saved for ever, it is hard to say in what He is not worse than man; for all good men would save others if they could…It is of no use saying that God is just, unless we define what justice is. In all Christian times people have said that ‘God is just’ and have credited him with an injustice such as transcends all human injustice that it is possible to conceive. -Florence Nightingale-
I know He will, but you still have not provided the scriptures, because there isn't any.
Yep, Shawn, the prophets of God most certainly did not speak of the restitution of all things from the earliest ages, no laddy, they most certainly did not. And, as for the Apostle St. Paul who wrote over one half of the New Covenant, he simply did not declare it.
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He has made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in heaven and things on earth, to find their one head in Him.
And you too, who in Him were made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will.
Yep, Shawn, the prophets of God most certainly did not speak of the restitution of all things from the earliest ages, no laddy, they most certainly did not. And, as for the Apostle St. Paul who wrote over one half of the New Covenant, he simply did not declare it.
Ummm I take you are not going to give me the scripture because it is not in the bible of temporary Hell. THanks, talk to you later.
Thanks, Birdy for sharing all of your information and the scriptures which speak of the eventual restoration of all to God. God bless.
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He has made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in heaven and things on earth, to find their one head in Him.And you too, who in Him were made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will.
I was wondering what people think of this concept. I am not asking about Unitarian Universalism that maintains that all religions lead to God but rather Christian Universalism that maintains that salvation is a gift from God and does not have an expiration date.
I put this post in atheism and agnosticism because I am interested in what people think of the concept more as a philosophy and I do not want to get into an argument with Christians over whether it is a heresy or not.
I am an atheist because I do not believe in any deities but I did find this interesting.
Basically as I understand it, CU maintains that salvation is a gift from God with no strings attached. There is no hard sell approach about having to "get saved" before you die. This does suppose that people need "saving" but that is another debate, for now let's assume they do. This would IMO solve some the problems with Christian mythology, for example what happens to babies that die without having sinned by the Christian definition but who cannot accept God's gift. Or what about people who lived before Christ, or people who lived in lands with no knowledge of him. CU seems to tidy it all up by saying that death is not the end of God's grace. Confessing that Jesus is your savior and therefore being "saved" is something that could happen after death.
Now it also introduces new problems. For example, could someone really, really, bad be saved, like say Hitler or a filthy atheist(kidding)? The answer would have to be yes.
Also, there would be no motivation not to sin, since you have all eternity to eventually get around to it. Not to mention that there would be no motivation to be part of the official church, and that would be bad for the church in a political sense, which may be why this idea is considered heresy to begin with.
Also again, some would doubt the value of your conversion if you could make it after you knew for certain the truth of life after death. Say for example that you didn't believe and Christ and you died and went to hell, then you converted, would that make your conversion less faithful? Probably. But doesn't the Bible say that people are saved by God's grace alone and not on merit. If you assume that a conversion before death has more merit than one after then that would contradict the idea of grace.
Now again, I don't believe in this, I am totally comfortable with the fact that when I die I will simply cease to exist. This is not a problem for me since I didn't exist for billions of years before I was born and that wasn't a problem that I can recall. I just think that CU seems more enlightened than the usual version of Christianity that I hear, the " God has a free gift for you, but you must act now and join his fan club to qualify!"
I lean heavily towards the Universalist Quakers, and I do believe that all are saved. God's love is that great. Yes, I believe that people like Hitler would be saved, even you. Ha. It is God's grace that saves, and as he said, "He desires all to be saved," and I believe he gets what he wants or he isn't God. My own personal experience of God tells me that this is true as well.
I am not a believer than Christ is the only way. His teachings are not new, but they are very good for most part, and I don't believe that the Bible is inspired by God, although it has things that are inspiring in it.
I am curious about CU and will look them up. Never heard of them before.
I really don't understand why you find that there is then no motivation to not sin. I believe in being kind towards others, not hurting anyone intentionally, and basically helping people in need. I may not have the same morals as a fundamentalist Christian, but I base them on what Christ and others have said, "Do unto others as you would like them to do unto you." I try to base them on love.
Good thread starter by the way, but I imagine you will have a lot of opposition to it.
Thanks, Birdy for sharing all of your information and the scriptures which speak of the eventual restoration of all to God. God bless.
Ephesians 1
Shana: you surely know by now Birdbrain loves to share. The letter of St. Paul to the Ephesians sums up in a nutshell what is the purpose of God for His creation. That purpose is indeed glorious beyond anyone's thinking and like some of the complex words used by Paul beyond beyond.
-PLAN A-
"The leaves of the Tree of Life are for the healing of the nations. And there shall no longer be a curse upon anything."
Plan b minus=
The leaves of the Tree of Life are for the potential healing of the nations. And there shall continue to be considerable curse upon nearly everything.
Hell comes from the Greek word Hades and the Hebrew word sheol. It was only the common grave. But Christians can't accept this because they have been taught otherwise, plus, for some reason it seems that they desire for others to be punished in a burning hell forever.
Even in bible dictioneries it is translated as "grave."
Sheol (pronounced "Sheh-ole")[1], in Hebrew שאול (Sh'ol), is the "abode of the dead", the "underworld", or "pit".[2] Sheol is the common destination of both the righteous and the unrighteous dead, as recounted in Ecclesiastes and Job.
Sheol is sometimes compared to Hades, the gloomy, twilight afterlife of Greek mythology. The word "hades" was in fact substituted for "sheol" when the Hebrew scriptures were translated into Greek (see Septuagint). The New Testament (written in Greek) also uses "hades" to refer to the abode of the dead.
"The ancient Hebrews had no idea of an immortal soul living a full and vital life beyond death, nor of any resurrection or return from death. Human beings, like the beasts of the field, are made of "dust of the earth," and at death they return to that dust (Gen. 2:7; 3:19). The Hebrew word nephesh, traditionally translated "living soul" but more properly understood as "living creature," is the same word used for all breathing creatures and refers to nothing immortal...All the dead go down to Sheol, and there they lie in sleep together — whether good or evil, rich or poor, slave or free (Job 3:11-19). It is described as a region "dark and deep," "the Pit," and "the land of forgetfulness," cut off from both God and human life above (Pss. 6:5; 88:3-12). Though in some texts Yahweh's power can reach down to Sheol (Ps. 139:8), the dominant idea is that the dead are abandoned forever. This idea of Sheol is negative in contrast to the world of life and light above, but there is no idea of judgment or of reward and punishment. If one faces extreme circumstances of suffering in the realm of the living above, as did Job, it can even be seen as a welcome relief from pain–see the third chapter of Job. But basically it is a kind of "nothingness," an existence that is barely existence at all, in which a "shadow" or "shade" of the former self survives (Ps. 88:10)."[5]
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)? The answer would have to be yes.
