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Old 11-28-2019, 08:11 AM
 
Location: Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
As you say - misquoting them or worse or at least disregarding the context in order o make them work as prophecies. Just look at the 'prophecies' connected with the death of Judas. What a dogs' breakfast. You are welcome to post them and try to show how good they actually are.
The texts were not changed to work as prophecies. John 21 was added for ..., I have no idea why. All I know is that Tertullian around 200 AD said the gospel of John ended at chapter 20.

As for Matthew 28:19, Eusebius tells us what his earlier version said. "Go, and make disciples of all the nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you,". Our version now reads "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,". Someone adding the Trinity later makes more sense than Eusebius removing a passage that matched his theology (Trinitarian or not)?
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Old 11-28-2019, 08:28 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,087 posts, read 20,691,451 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
The texts were not changed to work as prophecies. John 21 was added for ..., I have no idea why. All I know is that Tertullian around 200 AD said the gospel of John ended at chapter 20.

As for Matthew 28:19, Eusebius tells us what his earlier version said. "Go, and make disciples of all the nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you,". Our version now reads "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,". Someone adding the Trinity later makes more sense than Eusebius removing a passage that matched his theology (Trinitarian or not)?
Though one can never be "100% sure" the evidence would suggest that, as the dogma came later, the change to the Trinitarian reading would make more sense. It might also explain why Matthew has the passage interpreted as papal Authority (also given to all the apostles at 18.18.) and nobody else does.

I have some hypotheses about the additional John ending. but just some ideas I call "Floating stories". It's connected with something similar to the passage...hang on...

John 21.They went out and [a]immediately got into the boat, and that night they caught nothing. 4 But when the morning had now come, Jesus stood on the shore; yet the disciples did not know that it was Jesus. 5 Then Jesus said to them, “Children, have you any food?”

They answered Him, “No.”

6 And He said to them, “Cast the net on the right side of the boat, and you will find some.” So they cast, and now they were not able to draw it in because of the multitude of fish.

7 Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved said to Peter, “It is the Lord!” Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he put on his outer garment (for he had removed it), and plunged into the sea. 8 But the other disciples came in the little boat (for they were not far from land, but about two hundred cubits), dragging the net with fish
.

And compare that with Luke 5. 1And it came to pass, that, as the people pressed upon him to hear the word of God, he stood by the lake of Gennesaret,

2 And saw two ships standing by the lake: but the fishermen were gone out of them, and were washing their nets.

3 And he entered into one of the ships, which was Simon's, and prayed him that he would thrust out a little from the land. And he sat down, and taught the people out of the ship.

4 Now when he had left speaking, he said unto Simon, Launch out into the deep, and let down your nets for a draught.

5 And Simon answering said unto him, Master, we have toiled all the night, and have taken nothing: nevertheless at thy word I will let down the net.

6 And when they had this done, they inclosed a great multitude of fishes: and their net brake.


7 And they beckoned unto their partners, which were in the other ship, that they should come and help them. And they came, and filled both the ships, so that they began to sink.

8 When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord.

9 For he was astonished, and all that were with him, at the draught of the fishes which they had taken:

10 And so was also James, and John, the sons of Zebedee, which were partners with Simon. And Jesus said unto Simon, Fear not; from henceforth thou shalt catch men
.

It's uncannily similar and an addition to the calling of disciples (which it clearly is) in Mark and Matthew.

And it's further uncanny that we get some rather similar passages in Matthew but so changed as to be missed at a casual glance. One is an add on to the parables of the Kingdom

Matthew 13 7 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

51 “Have you understood all these things?” Jesus asked.

“Yes,” they replied
.

Matthew 13. 25 And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea.

26 And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear.

27 But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid.

28 And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.

29 And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.

30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink,
he cried, saying, Lord, save me.

31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

32 And when they were come into the ship, the wind ceased.


It strikes me that these items don't appear anywhere else in the other gospels, but pull them together and they look similar to me. And it is significant that mark has none of them.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 11-28-2019 at 08:54 AM..
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Old 11-28-2019, 08:32 AM
 
Location: southern california
61,288 posts, read 87,391,501 times
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The consistency in the Bible is its methodical representation of the superiority of the spiritual over the material
It is a map of what to expect in this world and how to overcome it
Been there done that
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Old 11-28-2019, 08:52 AM
 
Location: Minnesota
1,761 posts, read 1,713,034 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkgal View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the OT was first written in Hebrew, then translated to Greek, English and other languages, and the NT was written in Greek and translated to English and other languages?

Given the differences in meaning you can get when you translate something from one language to another, plus the fact that languages are always evolving and even a few hundred year can make a HUGE difference in language structure and definitions, how could the original literal meaning have been encapsulated in the modern version of the English language bible (let alone the bibles that have been translated from English to other more obscure languages)? Even the most subtle nuances could completely change the meaning. Anyone who has studied a language, even their own, would realise this.

Also, if you are an english-speaking literalist and do take everything the bible says word for word as true, would it be a good idea to at least learn Greek and/or Hebrew so you can read the original versions, as they were written? Has anyone done this?
I don't think you can take the bible literally. Even if "god" is all knowing, man is not! Similar to very intelligent adults trying to explain something to a very bright 3 year old. Both are smart, adjusted for their position in the scheme of things...but how does the adult quantum physicist explain to a 3 year old that time really doesn't exist, all things are happening at the same time, and linear time doesn't exist. Santa isn't coming tomorrow night, he was here last night, he's here now, and tomorrow night, and the night after too. You're eating tomorrow nights dinner at the same time as you're eating tonight's dinner. All this is true, but how do you expect even a very bright 3 year old to understand that? I'm a reasonably intelligent adult, and I can't even wrap my head around that.

In my opinion, you have to attempt to greatly simplify it...but perhaps in the simplification you are not really accurately describing 100% of the "truth", but if you attempt to explain it accurately, as you understand it, the child will get absolutely nothing out of it and be more confused than they were before you started. So you decide to win the immediate "battle", and we'll worry about winning the "war" slowly as they mature and can better understand such things. I don't understand people who think "god" stopped telling truths when the bible was done being written. If my understanding brings me to a different conclusion than the bible says...I'm going with my truth. I would think it would make sense that god would reveal truths as we're able to understand them, and as we individually and cumulatively grow and mature in our understanding, new information/truths may come our way....it just kind of makes sense. Are most adults still reading 2nd grade reading books, or have you moved on to much longer single spaced books with a lot of words and concepts that 2nd graders wouldn't understand?

My 3 year old "very bright" granddaughter (remember, I'm her grandpa, so of course she's very bright...lol), asked my wife where her parents were. They are deceased....so my wife told her that they had gone to sleep and were now in heaven, and that we'd see them again someday, but for now, we can't see them. Is that how I'd explain this to a normally intelligent adult? Of course not. Was what she said all true....well, sure, kind of, more or less a very simplistic version of the truth which left out a lot of details. She of course then wanted to go "wake them up" so she could see them. So now...where do you go with that question?

The bible may well be a good book to read, but it ultimately was written by men, with very limited understanding of the world. Perhaps very intelligent at the time, but we've since discovered that the sun doesn't revolve around the earth....but rather the other way around, and a million other "little" details like that, that would certainly have an impact on your view of who you are, your importance in the scheme of things, what you are, and why you are here.

Remember in kindergarten when a story was started and you told another, they told another, and by the time it got to the 15th person, it was all different and unrecognizable from the original story? Yeah....it's kind of like that too.

Translations from one language to another are like that too. I had co-worker who went to Japan for a month back in his college days. He had learned a little of the Japanese language...enough to get by for his visit. Whenever he asked for the location of the restroom, he's always get a strange look, but they always pointed the correct way to the bathroom....so all was good, apparently, until he happened to ask a bilingual person, and they told him he was actually asking the question, "where's the ****ter". I think my point has been made.
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Old 11-28-2019, 08:55 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,087 posts, read 20,691,451 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948 View Post
The consistency in the Bible is its methodical representation of the superiority of the spiritual over the material
It is a map of what to expect in this world and how to overcome it
Been there done that
The inconsistency of the Bible is for me, poor history, poor morality, poor consistency Seen there done with it.
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Old 11-28-2019, 09:09 AM
 
Location: Florida -
10,213 posts, read 14,824,183 times
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Contrary to popular, but, ill-informed belief, there is a tremendous range of non-theological evidence that the Bible could only be God's inspired Word of Truth! Of course, many are not seeking or the least interested in genuine evidence of Truth or God -- and block-out evidence to the contrary.

Many of these empirical proofs include Accurately fulfilled prophecy, Scientific evidence, Archaeological artifacts, Literary proof, Claims of 40 separate writers over 1500-years, Consistency of Bible truth across thousands of years, Life-changing power, Mathematical evidence, etc.. In depth explanations can be found on the free site: UCanknowthetruth.com
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Old 11-28-2019, 09:13 AM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
31,373 posts, read 20,168,052 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
Contrary to popular, but, ill-informed belief, there is a tremendous range of non-theological evidence that the Bible could only be God's inspired Word of Truth! Of course, many are not seeking or the least interested in genuine evidence of Truth or God -- and block-out evidence to the contrary.

Many of these empirical proofs include Accurately fulfilled prophecy, Scientific evidence, Archaeological artifacts, Literary proof, Claims of 40 separate writers over 1500-years, Consistency of Bible truth across thousands of years, Life-changing power, Mathematical evidence, etc.. In depth explanations can be found on the free site: UCanknowthetruth.com
Using unnecessary capital letters doesn't make something seem more important, or true.
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Old 11-28-2019, 09:21 AM
 
Location: Germany
16,761 posts, read 4,968,659 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
Contrary to popular, but, ill-informed belief, there is a tremendous range of non-theological evidence that the Bible could only be God's inspired Word of Truth! Of course, many are not seeking or the least interested in genuine evidence of Truth or God -- and block-out evidence to the contrary.

Many of these empirical proofs include
Accurately fulfilled prophecy, - Jesus invented out of the OT, also ignores failed prophecies.
Scientific evidence, - Zero.
Archaeological artifacts, - Kings, Chronicles and Maccabees based on some historical truths, the rest of the 'history' section is fiction.
Literary proof, - proves the Bible is not literally true.
Claims of 40 separate writers over 1500-years, - proves nothing other than people believe things.
Consistency of Bible truth across thousands of years, - Zero.
Life-changing power, - Other religions must also then be true.
Mathematical evidence, - Zero.
etc.. - Zero.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
In depth explanations can be found on the free site: UCanknowthetruth.com
The usual refuted apologetics.
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Old 11-28-2019, 09:27 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,087 posts, read 20,691,451 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutDude View Post
Using unnecessary capital letters doesn't make something seem more important, or true.
I know - but I still do it anyway. I am amused as well as bemused by these Faith -based assertions that the Bible is perfect and without discrepancy - that can't be waved away with some excuse .."This is Galilee material and that is Jerusalem material" (so that explains why the Synoptics have never heard of the raising of Lazarus and John has never heard of the transfiguration?) and the really crafty 'fulfuilled prophecy' apologetic.

Oh, as well as 'extra -Biblical confirmation'. popular but ill - informed.
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Old 11-28-2019, 09:57 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
33,221 posts, read 26,417,924 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post

As for Matthew 28:19, Eusebius tells us what his earlier version said. "Go, and make disciples of all the nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you,". Our version now reads "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,". Someone adding the Trinity later makes more sense than Eusebius removing a passage that matched his theology (Trinitarian or not)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Though one can never be "100% sure" the evidence would suggest that, as the dogma came later, the change to the Trinitarian reading would make more sense. It might also explain why Matthew has the passage interpreted as papal Authority (also given to all the apostles at 18.18.) and nobody else does.
I'm just passing though and noticed this thread. Concerning Matthew 28:19's reading of 'in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit,' while it perhaps can't be proven that they were referring to the Gospel of Matthew, Justin Martyr (c. AD 100-c AD 165) and Irenaeus (c. AD 130- c. AD 202) both show that baptism was being done in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in the early church of the second century.

Justin Martyr ~ First Apology (c. AD 150)
Chapter 61. Christian baptism

''. . .Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water.''

CHURCH FATHERS: The First Apology (St. Justin Martyr)
Irenaeus ~ Against Heresies (c. AD 180), Book III, Chapter XVII, section I
And again, giving to the disciples the power of regeneration into God, He said to them," Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies / Adversus Haereses, Book 3 (Roberts-Donaldson translation)
Irenaeus states that Jesus told his disciples to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit which suggests that he could have been referring to the Gospel of Matthew. Both Justin Martyr and Irenaeus predate Eusebius.

Another source is the Didache, although concerning its dating;
Scholars argue dates as late as the 4th century, but the consensus places it c.100 CE. Some scholars have argued more recently for a date as early as 50 CE. that gives the Didache the widest range of dating estimates of any Christian book.

https://earlychurch.org.uk/article_didache.html
So for what it's worth, the Didache also uses the Trinitarian formula.

Didache
Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism. And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

Didache. The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (translation Roberts-Donaldson).
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