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It amazes me how these evangelicals manage to talk around the famous murderers in the bible.
Moses we know murdered a guard
Exo 2:12 And he looked this way and that way, and when he did not see anyone, he killed the Egyptian and hid him in the sand.
He goes on to become the chosen one to lead the people out of Egypt, gets to invent the Mosaic religion etc.
David by implication murdered Uriah the Hittite after impregnating his wife while Uriah the Hittite was on the battlefront - turns out god was peeved and he kills the child of that relationship but he David gets off scott free - just not allowed to build the temple.
2Sa 11:14 And it happened in the morning, David wrote a letter to Joab and sent it by the hand of Uriah.
2Sa 11:15 And he wrote in the letter, saying, Set Uriah in the forefront of the hottest battle, and draw back from him so that he may be stricken and die.
We are told that David was a man after god's own heart but even in light of the evidence - a letter to boot instructing the officer to send the innocent man to his guaranteed death, who never slept with his wife on the specially arranged R&R David organized for him so as to hide or cover up the pregnancy.
Of course if you search the bible for David + woman, you get many verses where he is credited for deaths of them.
Then we have another hero Saul of Tarsus that wrote most of the NT who was renowned for persecution of the Christians and killing them.
Cain kills his brother Abel and god decrees that no one can take any vengeance against Cain. This is because it is thought the killing was an accident.
In the laws of Moses, there is provision made for shelter of a killer in a remote village.
A murderer convicted of a rape and murder facing the death penalty repents and finds Jesus before he is executed, but the victim was an innocent girl who lives a righteous life but for some reason does not quite make it around to "finding Jesus" before she is raped and killed.
The murderer makes it to heaven (he of course had time to contemplate his demise) but the innocent girl gets to go to hell.
Sounds fair?
In Moses' case he gets a free pass, David gets a free pass and so too does Paul after converting.
In light of this, they are pro-life (whatever that actually means) but is OK for god to kill a newborn innocent baby not to mention the multitudes of those babies killed by David and Moses.
Not to mention that the bloodline of Jesus goes back to king David. Although Jesus killed no one, many of his followers have in hi name.
One need only look at the Nuremberg trials to know that the leaders who may not have personally killed anyone, were sentenced to death for these crimes.
Yet the great heroes of the bible, get a free pass and so too does their god. Seems killers make good judaeo-christians.
It amazes me how these evangelicals manage to talk around the famous murderers in the bible.
Moses we know murdered a guard
Exo 2:12 And he looked this way and that way, and when he did not see anyone, he killed the Egyptian and hid him in the sand.
He goes on to become the chosen one to lead the people out of Egypt, gets to invent the Mosaic religion etc.
David by implication murdered Uriah the Hittite after impregnating his wife while Uriah the Hittite was on the battlefront - turns out god was peeved and he kills the child of that relationship but he David gets off scott free - just not allowed to build the temple.
2Sa 11:14 And it happened in the morning, David wrote a letter to Joab and sent it by the hand of Uriah.
2Sa 11:15 And he wrote in the letter, saying, Set Uriah in the forefront of the hottest battle, and draw back from him so that he may be stricken and die.
We are told that David was a man after god's own heart but even in light of the evidence - a letter to boot instructing the officer to send the innocent man to his guaranteed death, who never slept with his wife on the specially arranged R&R David organized for him so as to hide or cover up the pregnancy.
Of course if you search the bible for David + woman, you get many verses where he is credited for deaths of them.
Then we have another hero Saul of Tarsus that wrote most of the NT who was renowned for persecution of the Christians and killing them.
Cain kills his brother Abel and god decrees that no one can take any vengeance against Cain. This is because it is thought the killing was an accident.
In the laws of Moses, there is provision made for shelter of a killer in a remote village.
A murderer convicted of a rape and murder facing the death penalty repents and finds Jesus before he is executed, but the victim was an innocent girl who lives a righteous life but for some reason does not quite make it around to "finding Jesus" before she is raped and killed.
The murderer makes it to heaven (he of course had time to contemplate his demise) but the innocent girl gets to go to hell.
Sounds fair?
In Moses' case he gets a free pass, David gets a free pass and so too does Paul after converting.
In light of this, they are pro-life (whatever that actually means) but is OK for god to kill a newborn innocent baby not to mention the multitudes of those babies killed by David and Moses.
Not to mention that the bloodline of Jesus goes back to king David. Although Jesus killed no one, many of his followers have in hi name.
One need only look at the Nuremberg trials to know that the leaders who may not have personally killed anyone, were sentenced to death for these crimes.
Yet the great heroes of the bible, get a free pass and so too does their god. Seems killers make good judaeo-christians.
Or am I missing something here?
Okay I kinda understand what you are saying about people in these modern churches, but it would be easier for me to have you say how you would have handled or think these individuals should have been properly punished and why, because I'm not understanding why some should'nt be given a chance. Also, these people also suffered consequences of any mistakes, they did'nt get a free ride. Perhaps you are thinking along the lines of "once saved always saved" which is rediculous anyway. Still, confused here because this could take off in different directions. Just seems to jump around alot.
Probably would have to focus on just one and go from there. Maybe I'm missing something.
Okay I kinda understand what you are saying about people in these modern churches, but it would be easier for me to have you say how you would have handled or think these individuals should have been properly punished and why, because I'm not understanding why some should'nt be given a chance. Also, these people also suffered consequences of any mistakes, they did'nt get a free ride. Perhaps you are thinking along the lines of "once saved always saved" which is rediculous anyway. Still, confused here because this could take off in different directions. Just seems to jump around alot.
Probably would have to focus on just one and go from there. Maybe I'm missing something.
It is about forgiveness really and the POV the evangelical takes wrt the scenario I described.
In court cases we have precedents set in judgments and based on that future cases can be dismissed etc.
Now I do believe that a murderer should be punished but of course the way Jesus spoke about it, it was turning the other cheek and going the extra mile.
While most are Joe and Jane averages, when one becomes a murderer, receives the death penalty it is justice served. IOW enacting the OT eye for an eye. In the scenario I described, they look upon the ridiculous and the murderer having had time to make right makes it into heaven yet the righteous girl not.
Yes with David there were consequences - he did not get to build the temple - Oh boo hoo. Yet his exploits were not that of a righteous man, killing of women and children under his leadership and yet in today's society, we jail or execute those same kind of leaders with similar crimes. This is not about killing on the battlefield, it is about plunder, rape and murder all justified in the Mosaic laws which David had access to.
David came to his senses yes and repented, realized there was no way to unring the bell of sin and transgression and probably that in itself was punishment itself.
These three heroes of the bible get a pass yet the folk are OK with god killing Bathsheba's son and are pro-life iro abortion.
The question is, all the folk these people killed and raped, were they consigned to hell while the perpetrators get away, have time to repent and make up to their god?
IMO the evangelical brand of xianity is more OT orientated and less grace which is of course what Jesus taught. He was mostly against the pious and self righteous judging folk like the S&P's and their followers.
Thus what they are selling as snake oil salesmen is Judaic and folk get free passes only if one adheres to their statement of faith.
We take folk like Ted Haggard and Ray Boltz and see how quick these self same folk turn on them, why? Because they are gay. We see instances of big leaders talking advantage of woman, having sex in their office, adultery and they are also ousted/rejected. So see where I am going. Minor sins of these modern folk get lambasted on, yet their infallible bible heroes, who kill, get a free pass. There is no consistency.
It amazes me how these evangelicals manage to talk around the famous murderers in the bible.
Moses we know murdered a guard
Exo 2:12 And he looked this way and that way, and when he did not see anyone, he killed the Egyptian and hid him in the sand.
He goes on to become the chosen one to lead the people out of Egypt, gets to invent the Mosaic religion etc.
David by implication murdered Uriah the Hittite after impregnating his wife while Uriah the Hittite was on the battlefront - turns out god was peeved and he kills the child of that relationship but he David gets off scott free - just not allowed to build the temple.
2Sa 11:14 And it happened in the morning, David wrote a letter to Joab and sent it by the hand of Uriah.
2Sa 11:15 And he wrote in the letter, saying, Set Uriah in the forefront of the hottest battle, and draw back from him so that he may be stricken and die.
We are told that David was a man after god's own heart but even in light of the evidence - a letter to boot instructing the officer to send the innocent man to his guaranteed death, who never slept with his wife on the specially arranged R&R David organized for him so as to hide or cover up the pregnancy.
Of course if you search the bible for David + woman, you get many verses where he is credited for deaths of them.
Then we have another hero Saul of Tarsus that wrote most of the NT who was renowned for persecution of the Christians and killing them.
Cain kills his brother Abel and god decrees that no one can take any vengeance against Cain. This is because it is thought the killing was an accident.
In the laws of Moses, there is provision made for shelter of a killer in a remote village.
A murderer convicted of a rape and murder facing the death penalty repents and finds Jesus before he is executed, but the victim was an innocent girl who lives a righteous life but for some reason does not quite make it around to "finding Jesus" before she is raped and killed.
The murderer makes it to heaven (he of course had time to contemplate his demise) but the innocent girl gets to go to hell.
Sounds fair?
In Moses' case he gets a free pass, David gets a free pass and so too does Paul after converting.
In light of this, they are pro-life (whatever that actually means) but is OK for god to kill a newborn innocent baby not to mention the multitudes of those babies killed by David and Moses.
Not to mention that the bloodline of Jesus goes back to king David. Although Jesus killed no one, many of his followers have in hi name.
One need only look at the Nuremberg trials to know that the leaders who may not have personally killed anyone, were sentenced to death for these crimes.
Yet the great heroes of the bible, get a free pass and so too does their god. Seems killers make good judaeo-christians.
Or am I missing something here?
No free passes. There were plenty of bad things done by David, Lot, Moses, etc. We don't claim they were good in doing those things. They were forgiven and used by God despite them, though.
Heck, if anything, it testifies to the authenticity of the Bible. If it was some book that was made up, you'd think the writer would have taken those parts out where the hero screwed up.
No free passes. There were plenty of bad things done by David, Lot, Moses, etc. We don't claim they were good in doing those things. They were forgiven and used by God despite them, though.
Heck, if anything, it testifies to the authenticity of the Bible. If it was some book that was made up, you'd think the writer would have taken those parts out where the hero screwed up.
Many of the bad things done in the old testiment were actually ordered by God. Some of them, God did the dirty work himself. So it's not like God needed to forgive them - he was the one calling the shots.
No free passes. There were plenty of bad things done by David, Lot, Moses, etc. We don't claim they were good in doing those things. They were forgiven and used by God despite them, though.
Heck, if anything, it testifies to the authenticity of the Bible. If it was some book that was made up, you'd think the writer would have taken those parts out where the hero screwed up.
As long as you're gonna insist on rumor mongering based on zero evidence, lets carry this little game to it's conclusion.
Boxcar, why so paranoid?
Why won't you think the *they* refers to christians? I was pointing to something else
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