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do "quantum fluctuations" (whatever that is) love you, the way a mother loves her newborn baby, only a thousand times greater than that? Do "quantum fluctuations" know you and comfort you and fill you with peace, benevolence, and compassion?
No. But then neither does something created by my imagination, which I have (conveniently) endowed with the capacity to love, know and comfort. The beauty of creating things with our imagination is they can be whatever we want or need them to be.
do "quantum fluctuations" (whatever that is) love you, the way a mother loves her newborn baby, only a thousand times greater than that? Do "quantum fluctuations" know you and comfort you and fill you with peace, benevolence, and compassion?
No. No more than a lion that kills a buffalo by biting its throat to throttle it to death, loves and knows that buffalo and fills it with comfort and peace, benevolence and compassion.
In fact, even less so since a lion at least has life and consciousness.
No. But then neither does something created by my imagination, which I have (conveniently) endowed with the capacity to love, know and comfort. The beauty of creating things with our imagination is they can be whatever we want or need them to be.
how do you determine or discern if someone loves you, comforts you, knows you?
are love, comfort, concern "created by your imagination" ?
How do you know if they are real?
How do you verify it? How do you know you aren't just making it up?
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 08-20-2019 at 05:37 PM..
how do you determine or discern if someone loves you, comforts you, knows you?
are love, comfort, concern "created by your imagination" ?
How do you know if they are real?
How do you verify it? How do you know you aren't just making it up?
Anybody? This is very much off 'How old is God?' though it is 'related' to the question of whether a god exists at all.
The apologetic is that God has to be real because 'Quantum fluctuations' (Another non -theistic epithet for the atheist to scream in moments of extreme tension) may have been where the Infinite regression apologetic response to the 'Evolution' explanation gets you. But - so this one goes - it (evolution) can't explain Love. For that you must postulate God.
Anybody? This is very much off 'How old is God?' though it is 'related' to the question of whether a god exists at all. The apologetic is that God has to be real because 'Quantum fluctuations' (Another non -theistic epithet for the atheist to scream in moments of extreme tension) may have been where the Infinite regression apologetic response to the 'Evolution' explanation gets you. But - so this one goes - it (evolution) can't explain Love. For that you must postulate God.
...
No, the point made in post #143 is NOT "postulating God to explain love."
The point made, and question raised (in response to post shown below by HM), is how does a person discern and verify love, caring, concern?
The point made and question raised is are the love, caring, concern a person feels "real" or "imagined"
and how does someone validate or verify that?
if someone acknowledges and admits that love, caring, and concern they feel are real and not imagined,
then they must have a way to discern that.
i was asking them to describe what that process is, how they validate it, verify it.
people have ways to discern, verify, validate. to trivialize or dismiss that is a flaw and a blind spot. it is simplistic.
the thread and discussion are about God. if someone postulates there is no God then they have nothing to bring to the conversation which discusses attributes of God. just like if someone claims apples or calculus don't exist, they have nothing to bring to the conversation which discusses attributes of apples or nuances of calculus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeelaMonster
No. But then neither does something created by my imagination, which I have (conveniently) endowed with the capacity to love, know and comfort. The beauty of creating things with our imagination is they can be whatever we want or need them to be.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 08-21-2019 at 07:27 AM..
No, the point made in post #143 is NOT "postulating God to explain love."
The point made, and question raised (in response to post shown below by HM), is how does a person discern and verify love, caring, concern?
The point made and question raised is are the love, caring, concern a person feels "real" or "imagined"
and how does someone validate or verify that?
if someone acknowledges and admits that love, caring, and concern they feel are real and not imagined,
then they must have a way to discern that.
i was asking them to describe what that process is, how they validate it, verify it.
people have ways to discern, verify, validate. to trivialize or dismiss that is a flaw and a blind spot. it is simplistic.
the thread and discussion are about God. if someone postulates there is no God then they have nothing to bring to the conversation which discusses attributes of God. just like if someone claims apples or calculus don't exist, they have nothing to bring to the conversation which discusses attributes of apples or nuances of calculus.
Tzaph, you know as well as I do that the topic of the forum is Religion or 'spirituality' at least. It is NOT about philosophy or psychology. If your point was not to argue that materialism/evolution cannot explain "Love" and only Something More (aka "God") can be the answer, it ought to have been.
how do you determine or discern if someone loves you, comforts you, knows you?
are love, comfort, concern "created by your imagination" ? How do you know if they are real?
How do you verify it? How do you know you aren't just making it up?
That is the first step, and the point of my post. Long before I worry whether someone loves me, comforts me, knows me... or hates me, disturbs me, or even knows I exist.... it seems to matter if they (the "someone" and not their feelings) are real. Otherwise, it doesn't much matter what they do to or for me! That determination is usually apparent: I can see them, interact with them, communicate with them, have a relationship with them, and they with me. I have reason to think they exist. THEN I can begin to think about what they can do for me, or I for them.
The question (post #140) was whether "...'quantum fluctuations' (whatever that is) love you, the way a mother loves her newborn baby?" My answer was they (whatever they are) do not, any more than a figment of my imagination loves me. Both seem to be equally incapable of loving me, in any meaningful way.
I did not say that love, comfort, concern are created by my (or your) imagination... but acknowledged that the thing we tell ourselves is loving us might be. At which point, that imaginary love from an imaginary being isn't worth much.
Last edited by HeelaMonster; 08-21-2019 at 09:56 AM..
That is the first step, and the point of my post. Long before I worry whether someone loves me, comforts me, knows me... or hates me, disturbs me, or even knows I exist.... it seems to matter if they (the "someone" and not their feelings) are real. Otherwise, it doesn't much matter what they do to or for me! That determination is usually apparent: I can see them, interact with them, communicate with them, have a relationship with them, and they with me. I have reason to think they exist. THEN I can begin to think about what they can do for me, or I for them.
The question (post #140) was whether "...'quantum fluctuations' (whatever that is) love you, the way a mother loves her newborn baby?" My answer was they (whatever they are) do not, any more than a figment of my imagination loves me. Both seem to be equally incapable of loving me, in any meaningful way.
I did not say that love, comfort, concern are created by my (or your) imagination... but acknowledged that the thing we tell ourselves is loving us might be. At which point, that imaginary love from an imaginary being isn't worth much.
"That determination is usually apparent: I can see them, interact with them, communicate with them, have a relationship with them, and they with me. I have reason to think they exist."
Exactly.
That describes to a T how and why so many people recognize and acknowledge the Creator. Exactly, with one word change from "I can see" to "I can sense"
" That determination is usually apparent: I can sense them, interact with them, communicate with them, have a relationship with them, and they with me. I have reason to think they exist."
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 08-21-2019 at 10:22 AM..
That is the first step, and the point of my post. Long before I worry whether someone loves me, comforts me, knows me... or hates me, disturbs me, or even knows I exist.... it seems to matter if they (the "someone" and not their feelings) are real. Otherwise, it doesn't much matter what they do to or for me! That determination is usually apparent: I can see them, interact with them, communicate with them, have a relationship with them, and they with me. I have reason to think they exist. THEN I can begin to think about what they can do for me, or I for them.
The question (post #140) was whether "...'quantum fluctuations' (whatever that is) love you, the way a mother loves her newborn baby?" My answer was they (whatever they are) do not, any more than a figment of my imagination loves me. Both seem to be equally incapable of loving me, in any meaningful way.
I did not say that love, comfort, concern are created by my (or your) imagination... but acknowledged that the thing we tell ourselves is loving us might be. At which point, that imaginary love from an imaginary being isn't worth much.
you said it right there: imaginary love. your words.
and you have yet to answer the question.
how do you know the love, care, concern you feel (for someone, or from someone) is real and not imaginary?
how do you discern, verify, validate that for yourself, within yourself?
that is what I am asking.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 08-21-2019 at 10:55 AM..
Tzaph, you know as well as I do that the topic of the forum is Religion or 'spirituality' at least. It is NOT about philosophy or psychology. If your point was not to argue that materialism/evolution cannot explain "Love" and only Something More (aka "God") can be the answer, it ought to have been.
it is very pertinent. one of the most consistent attributes ascribed to God is "God is love"
how people discern and verify to themself that they feel love
is the same process of discernment people use to verify the Creator
if someone feels, experiences, knows God
and someone else tells them that is imaginary
it is very reasonable to ask the someone else how they distinguish between "real" and "imaginary" when what is being felt, sensed, experienced is internal. like love. like God.
I have no interest in convincing you or anyone else of anything regarding your experience, your beliefs, your theology, what you feel, or your perceptions.
However I am pointing out how utterly flawed and illogical it is to tell someone they are "imagining it" or "no you don't feel that, it is imaginary"
because bottom line: you have no way of determining or validating what anyone else is experiencing, feeling, or sensing.
regarding thread topic "how old is god" it's like trying to answer "how old is music" or "how old is love"
and just as people can discern and differentiate between how their love for a slice of pizza is different from the love they feel for their newborn baby. So too are people well equipped to know and feel the difference between the love from the Creator, and the love from their ex-wife.
people have that capacity to discern, verify, validate.
some use it, some ignore it, some dismiss it.
some call it imaginary.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 08-21-2019 at 11:16 AM..
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This is very much off 'How old is God?' though it is 'related' to the question of whether a god exists at all.
