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It hit me that anything capable of designing the entirety of the Universe as we know it (and we have only glimpsed but a miniscule part of it in our own scientific infancy to date) would have to be somewhat massive itself. I mean, we know that the dumber animals (an ant, a flea, a cockraoch, a lobster, etc.) all have brain sizes commeasurate with their known intelligence. A chimp's brain is smaller than ours, but larger than a rat's. It simply takes a certain volume of brain cells to contain the logic circuits necessary for ever-more-complex calculations.
A long-ago friend of mine, who became an ardent and vocal born-again Christian of the Southern Baptist persuasion, told me, quite categorically, that God was simultaneouslywatching and controlling everything in the entire Universe, every sub-atomic particle, all at once. I picked up a tiny rock and said, "Do you know how many sub-atomic particles are in this tiny peice of basalt, friend? A lot!" He calmly assured me that God was watching what I held in my hand, at that moment. That also made him feel all warm inside, he told me. That God was watching the particles in that rock, "...right now!!!".
I then asked him if his God was therefore watching the sub-atomic particles in his lower bowel as well. He didn't like that concept so much, and thus dismissed it with a hand-wave and a snort....
Taking the opposing view to that of Intelligent Design, that being "It's all too complex to have naturally occurred without some sort of guiding intelligence", I''ll put forth an alternatehyothesis:
It's all farfartoo big for any single entity to have 1) "insta-built" it, and 2) now have to manage it ALL on a particle-by-particle, nano-second-by-nano-second basis.
Of course, this also begs the question; if one had such massive intelligence and, apparently, the ability to subvert, bend or ignore the known and observed laws of quantum & even elementary Newtonian physics, why would they spend their valuable time on this Earthly pursuit? Are we just a sort of Cosmic Legoland™ toy set created for this uber-being? What's he up to now? Isn't this getting a bit boring, only justified because "He surely loves us"???
And what was he doing before this Universe? Where did he get the stuff he made us from? Nothing? And who spawned him? An even more super-intelligent set of parents?
Common sense alone (not to mention the ideas of the Franciscan monk, Sir William of Ockham, with his famous razor of logic) suggests that this had to have been something otherthan a playtime doddle for a macro-mind. The ongoing pico-second management of each sub-atomic particle at once? Not so "common-sense", I'd hope you'd agree.
This is, BTW, an excellent read as to Common-Sense philosophy in logical determinations.
The physical size of such a "head" would be several hundred light-years in diameter, at least. Besides, what does he/she eat, especially being that macro and all? I mean, we're supposed to have been made in his image, right? And his kid, Jesus, was just our size and shape, not a humongo-light-years sized monstro.
Common sense, man....think it through!
P&L2A!
Last edited by rifleman; 04-23-2009 at 11:25 AM..
Reason: clarity
I see where you're headed with this, but i have a feeling you're going to hear something along the lines of, "God is not constrained by the laws of this universe, and can there fore do any thing" or something similar
It hit me that anything capable of designing the entirety of the Universe as we know it (and we have only glimpsed but a miniscule part of it in our own scientific infancy to date) would have to be somewhat massive itself. I mean, we know that the dumber animals (an ant, a flea, a cockraoch, a lobster, etc.) all have brain sizes commeasurate with their known intelligence. A chimp's brain is smaller than ours, but larger than a rat's. It simply takes a certain volume of brain cells to contain the logic circuits necessary for ever-more-complex calculations.
A long-ago friend of mine, who became an ardent and vocal born-again Christian of the Southern Baptist persuasion, told me, quite categorically, that God was simultaneouslywatching and controlling everything in the entire Universe, every sub-atomic particle, all at once. I picked up a tiny rock and said, "Do you know how many sub-atomic particles are in this tiny peice of basalt, friend? A lot!" He calmly assured me that God was watching what I held in my hand, at that moment. That also made him feel all warm inside, he told me. That God was watching the particles in that rock, "...right now!!!".
I then asked him if his God was therefore watching the sub-atomic particles in his lower bowel as well. He didn't like that concept so much, and thus dismissed it with a hand-wave and a snort....
Taking the opposing view to that of Intelligent Design, that being "It's all too complex to have naturally occurred without some sort of guiding intelligence", I''ll put forth an alternatehyothesis:
It's all farfartoo big for any single entity to have 1) "insta-built" it, and 2) now have to manage it ALL on a particle-by-particle, nano-second-by-nano-second basis.
Of course, this also begs the question; if one had such massive intelligence and, apparently, the ability to subvert, bend or ignore the known and observed laws of quantum & even elementary Newtonian physics, why would they spend their valuable time on this Earthly pursuit? Are we just a sort of Cosmic Legoland™ toy set created for this uber-being? What's he up to now? Isn't this getting a bit boring, only justified because "He surely loves us"???
And what was he doing before this Universe? Where did he get the stuff he made us from? Nothing? And who spawned him? An even more super-intelligent set of parents?
Common sense alone (not to mention the ideas of the Franciscan monk, Sir William of Ockham, with his famous razor of logic) suggests that this had to have been something otherthan a playtime doddle for a macro-mind. The ongoing pico-second management of each sub-atomic particle at once? Not so "common-sense", I'd hope you'd agree.
This is, BTW, an excellent read as to Common-Sense philosophy in logical determinations.
The physical size of such a "head" would be several hundred light-years in diameter, at least. Besides, what does he/she eat, especially being that macro and all? I mean, we're supposed to have been made in his image, right? And his kid, Jesus, was just our size and shape, not a humongo-light-years sized monstro.
Common sense, man....think it through!
P&L2A!
Yeah, "common sense" - how philosophical.
What's the number for the boys at NASA? I want to call them and tell them their Mars Rover was a fable.
This thread can go anywhere so I am going to ramble with a few of my own observations.
The primal survival instinct we have imputes the fear of death. Religion has tapped into this primordial fear and used it to coerce and control people for sociopolitical reasons.
There used to be a video on YouTube where an atheist converts other atheists to believe in god using techniques employed by the church - call it the power of suggestion. I am sure all of us played the bogey man game of ghost stories when we were kids and this invariably led to heightened senses so the mere rational sound of boo would yield shrieks of panic unless you were the booer.
In the video, the proponent uses subtle power of suggestion messages subtly masked in his rhetoric and gets people to break down and cry, fall over backwards without touching them etc. - everything we see as evidence of the holy spirit in church shows. Included was the stretching out of hands in empathy for a particular recipient much like the church does with their prayers for healing/affliction whatever.
Unfortunately, these vids have been removed.
At the time I watched them, I read up on an experiment carried out either on DNA or molecules or brain tissue where one sample was isolated and another (source) was exposed to various stimulae. The isolated sample displayed the same reaction as the source. The samples were progressively moved apart from each other until they were 50 miles apart, the results were identical.
This means we possibly have some type of psychokinesis powers that some are able to tap into unknowingly or willfully. This could explain the apparent power of prayer in apparent miracles that some have reported like growths disappearing in front of witnesses etc. Maybe the holy man of yore were able to tap into this and perform their said miracles.
Our quest for answers to origins of life must also be an instinctive trait otherwise how does one seek out answers to questions?
Following how babies explore their world w/o any human or external intervention, the way they crawl, then stand up and take those first steps, those first words, becoming aware of their surroundings etc. and as they grow up asserting their survival instinct in coexistence with their peers/siblings, we see all of this happening naturally.
So what changes? How do we lose it?
I do not know but it sure looks like that the "little ones" can be coerced very easily when you get them young and fashion their worldview to any sociopolitical creed. This is done by believers and non believers alike.
Even today, anyone that has had military training knows how one can be converted from a pacifist into a trained killer - conformance to the pack mentality where the needs of the pack outweigh the needs of the individual and you take orders from the pack leader. This is achieved with basic reward and punishment techniques and subtle powers of suggestion.
Thus it is very possible to convince people of intelligent design be it false or true. The fact remains that no living person can prove there is a god or not.
What we understand of our world is in its infancy and also what we are capable of doing with our minds/brains. We are after all told we only utilize 10% or so (consciously?)
For me it is sad to see that the quest for knowledge is quelled by the religious coercing folk to take their holy books as the be all and end all of all questions.
Having been trough the whole christian churchy thing, I have experienced first hand these charismatic fraudsters and was for a long time a willing participant as lead musician and worship leader and eventually instinctively knew how to compile a program and minister it so that it would guarantee a positive reception by the congregation leaving prepared hearts for the pastor to minister his sermon to.
Yet I was never entirely convinced and still had many questions the church or bible had no answers for. I guess for folk like me, we are destined to become skeptics.
Coming back to the origins of earth and man, looking at all the geological, fossil and other evidence, there is no way we can accept the young earth POV and biblical creation itself gets a big question mark.
As part of the "group think" dynamic employed by almost every organization, people like to place people in predefined categories or boxes, here I am classified as atheist but I am still open to the possibility of God. However I am of the opinion as someone once stated;
In the beginning god created man and man reciprocated.
I guess my dawg is also religious as he used to like singing along with me when I played my guitar or when the ice cream van comes past our house.
This matter of complexity is one that keeps me 'in line' whenever I might be tempted to ponder the question "What if you're wrong?"
I've even entertained the idea that only man's ego keeps him from considering that god may resemble an ameoba (re: "in his image") and evolution and religion co-exists.
But that doesn"t allow much for brain power.
This matter of complexity is one that keeps me 'in line' whenever I might be tempted to ponder the question "What if you're wrong?"
I've even entertained the idea that only man's ego keeps him from considering that god may resemble an ameoba (re: "in his image") and evolution and religion co-exists.
But that doesn"t allow much for brain power.
a very beautiful, yet very melancholic panorama conveyed by you, old_cold.
very much appreciated, with or without allowance, rest assured!
It hit me that anything capable of designing the entirety of the Universe as we know it (and we have only glimpsed but a miniscule part of it in our own scientific infancy to date) would have to be somewhat massive itself. I mean, we know that the dumber animals (an ant, a flea, a cockraoch, a lobster, etc.) all have brain sizes commeasurate with their known intelligence. A chimp's brain is smaller than ours, but larger than a rat's. It simply takes a certain volume of brain cells to contain the logic circuits necessary for ever-more-complex calculations.
A long-ago friend of mine, who became an ardent and vocal born-again Christian of the Southern Baptist persuasion, told me, quite categorically, that God was simultaneouslywatching and controlling everything in the entire Universe, every sub-atomic particle, all at once. I picked up a tiny rock and said, "Do you know how many sub-atomic particles are in this tiny peice of basalt, friend? A lot!" He calmly assured me that God was watching what I held in my hand, at that moment. That also made him feel all warm inside, he told me. That God was watching the particles in that rock, "...right now!!!".
I then asked him if his God was therefore watching the sub-atomic particles in his lower bowel as well. He didn't like that concept so much, and thus dismissed it with a hand-wave and a snort....
Taking the opposing view to that of Intelligent Design, that being "It's all too complex to have naturally occurred without some sort of guiding intelligence", I''ll put forth an alternatehyothesis:
It's all farfartoo big for any single entity to have 1) "insta-built" it, and 2) now have to manage it ALL on a particle-by-particle, nano-second-by-nano-second basis.
Of course, this also begs the question; if one had such massive intelligence and, apparently, the ability to subvert, bend or ignore the known and observed laws of quantum & even elementary Newtonian physics, why would they spend their valuable time on this Earthly pursuit? Are we just a sort of Cosmic Legoland™ toy set created for this uber-being? What's he up to now? Isn't this getting a bit boring, only justified because "He surely loves us"???
And what was he doing before this Universe? Where did he get the stuff he made us from? Nothing? And who spawned him? An even more super-intelligent set of parents?
Common sense alone (not to mention the ideas of the Franciscan monk, Sir William of Ockham, with his famous razor of logic) suggests that this had to have been something otherthan a playtime doddle for a macro-mind. The ongoing pico-second management of each sub-atomic particle at once? Not so "common-sense", I'd hope you'd agree.
This is, BTW, an excellent read as to Common-Sense philosophy in logical determinations.
The physical size of such a "head" would be several hundred light-years in diameter, at least. Besides, what does he/she eat, especially being that macro and all? I mean, we're supposed to have been made in his image, right? And his kid, Jesus, was just our size and shape, not a humongo-light-years sized monstro.
Common sense, man....think it through!
P&L2A!
It is a good thing that God is spirit and not limited by our understanding of Him. It is good that God is outside of time and not limited by this bubble (of time and space) that he created for us to live in. It is good that he came in human form to connect us with the father as Jesus Christ. God is good is he not?
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