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Saying it is not all about emotional investment does not make it so. ...An OBE is an OBE regardless and it seems they are more common and more explainable that most people know.
nozz makes a good point
and the simple ordinary out of body experience many people have just about every night
is when we go to sleep and have dreams
those dreams where we "feel like we are flying" and those dreams that "seem so real" are an OBE.
i would have to wonder about someone's intent in seeking to "make it happen" though, to intentionally induce an out of body experience. seem to me the same reason people choose to take recreational drugs or psychotropic drugs, seem to be a similar mindset.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 08-10-2015 at 07:24 AM..
No idea. Maybe you should ask someone who said it is, instead of me. What _I_ said is off topic is me evaluating your experience in any way. This thread, as the mod above just reminded us, is about anyone who had such an experience. It is not about other people evaluating those experiences or explaining how they are not as magic as many people think they are.
I don't recall asking you to evaluate my experience. Nor do I recall saying that I think that my experience was magical.
Quote:
My point exactly. Thank you for making it for me. What ARE OBEs if not physical sensations. It is the experience of being outside your own body. That is by definition a physical sensation. And what the arm experience shows is just how readily the brain fools itself and you. And when you DO that experiment, which as I said I recommend very very heavily, you realize just how convincing it is when your own brain tells you things that you patently know are not true.
And my point was that my experience was not just a physical sensation. It was visual, and that makes it very different from the arm experiment.
Lab-speak = what science is able to do and what people interpret from that.
Thanks for clarifying.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
You have had a glimpse into another aspect of our reality, Pleroo. You are not alone in being "mentally blind" (unable to visualize). But in altered states (such as dreams) we are afforded glimpses into our true reality. Unfortunately, our subconscious mind is usually in control and it can harbor many fears and negative content which we experience as nightmares. Learning to acquire control over your dreams is a first step into another realm. When you do achieve control, you will encounter aspects that you cannot alter no matter how much you try. They are what I consider aspects of our true reality. Control is the key.
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Originally Posted by Rotagivan
It is the other way around. The subconscious is more aware than the surface conscious as to the alternate realities and it is the surface consciousness (which is primarily how the individual self identifies) which is responsible for the fear and lack of control etc when confronted with the unusual.
The subconscious aspect of the individual is often misunderstood and/or misrepresented by the surface aspect (dominant self identity).
The 'nightmares' etc are ways in which the subconscious self gives opportunity to the conscious self to face the fears and move through them and learn from them, and generally heal.
Yes, I've found that dreams, including nightmares, can give me a great deal of insight when I pay attention to them and take the time to analyze them a bit.
I have also had several instances of becoming aware that I was dreaming as I was dreaming, mostly during periods of sleep paralysis, which allowed me not to panic, and one time it allowed me to briefly fly in a dream, which was cool. I didn't connect that with my OOB experience, because I don't really "see" in my dreams, as far as I can tell. The best way I can describe it is that I have... impressions. Or, maybe I can see but when I wake up, because of my mental blindness, I simply can't visually recall the things I may have seen in my dreams (although I can verbally recall visual details, which I know doesn't make sense, but I don't know how else to explain it)? I'm really not sure.
Last edited by Pleroo; 08-10-2015 at 08:29 AM..
Reason: trying to clarify
i would have to wonder about someone's intent in seeking to "make it happen" though, to intentionally induce an out of body experience. seem to me the same reason people choose to take recreational drugs or psychotropic drugs, seem to be a similar mindset.
The drug Ketamine is known to produce effects similar to an OBE. Used for anesthesia, it has become a street drug.
nozz makes a good point
and the simple ordinary out of body experience many people have just about every night
is when we go to sleep and have dreams
those dreams where we "feel like we are flying" and those dreams that "seem so real" are an OBE.
i would have to wonder about someone's intent in seeking to "make it happen" though, to intentionally induce an out of body experience. seem to me the same reason people choose to take recreational drugs or psychotropic drugs, seem to be a similar mindset.
Saying it is not all about emotional investment does not make it so. As I said I have looked to see if there are any actual arguments differentiating the experiences based on location and there are none there. I am sure people get highly emotionally invested in the experience when the context is similarly emotional.... such as nearly dying or some such.... but that is exactly when one must be more skeptical. Not less. The experiences we have are highly interesting and worthy of discussion. But mere context should not elevate them. There is no reason on offer, much less from you or this thread, to differentiate them on. An OBE is an OBE regardless and it seems they are more common and more explainable that most people know.
I can not recommend the arm experiment enough. It is an OBE that anyone can have and quite easily. And the experience of knowing where your arm is, but having your own brain stridently inform you otherwise is one that is not only transformative, but informative. You can very quickly have an experience that tells you exactly why people who have full OBE are so moved by the experience.
I have to say that it may be you who are emotionally invested with the arm thing.
If these two things were really the same thing, then it would be easy to accomplish either.
I understand your keenness for wanting people not to read too much into their experiences but the fact of the matter that the experiences themselves compel me to ask the questions and seek the answers...not on 'how' but 'why'.
So when someone says 'your brain tricked you' I have to ask why did the 'brain' do this and what in the experience was the 'brain' showing me.
Of course 'the brain' isn't a mindful organ so whatever was doing the 'tricking' was able to build a complex set of simulations and have me (the surface consciousness) experience them as real.
good question I would be interested to hear it discussed "for what reasons do people seek to induce out of body experience" whether it is in this thread or another, not sure if that is included in this particular thread topic or not but certainly a related topic of interest
I know in the 60s and 70s people talked a lot about deliberately taking psychotropics and other drugs for a variety of reasons, it would be interesting to see how the reasons compare to those nowadays seeking to induce out of body experiences
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 08-10-2015 at 12:55 PM..
nozz makes a good point
and the simple ordinary out of body experience many people have just about every night
is when we go to sleep and have dreams
those dreams where we "feel like we are flying" and those dreams that "seem so real" are an OBE.
i would have to wonder about someone's intent in seeking to "make it happen" though, to intentionally induce an out of body experience. seem to me the same reason people choose to take recreational drugs or psychotropic drugs, seem to be a similar mindset.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
good question I would be interested to hear it discussed "for what reasons do people seek to induce out of body experience" whether it is in this thread or another, not sure if that is included in this particular thread topic or not but certainly a related topic of interest
I know in the 60s and 70s people talked a lot about deliberately taking psychotropics and other drugs for a variety of reasons, it would be interesting to see how the reasons compare to those nowadays seeking to induce out of body experiences
Well, since you consider dreams an out of body experience, then I can speak to that. Have you ever had a dream where you were flying? It's fun. The entertainment factor of being able to have some control over what one experiences in their dreams would be one reason I would actively seek a lucid dream. Also curiosity and the possibility of exploring my dream world, and maybe even being able to benefit from that as a form of introspection and to spark creativity and strengthen intuition. Also, I'm intrigued by the possibility of there being a collective consciousness or some other way that people are able to connect with each other on a subconscious level and the potential that I might be able to become aware of that, or tap into it, through lucid dreaming.
good question I would be interested to hear it discussed "for what reasons do people seek to induce out of body experience" whether it is in this thread or another, not sure if that is included in this particular thread topic or not but certainly a related topic of interest
I know in the 60s and 70s people talked a lot about deliberately taking psychotropics and other drugs for a variety of reasons, it would be interesting to see how the reasons compare to those nowadays seeking to induce out of body experiences
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
Well, since you consider dreams an out of body experience, then I can speak to that. Have you ever had a dream where you were flying? It's fun. The entertainment factor of being able to have some control over what one experiences in their dreams would be one reason I would actively seek a lucid dream. Also curiosity and the possibility of exploring my dream world, and maybe even being able to benefit from that as a form of introspection and to spark creativity and strengthen intuition. Also, I'm intrigued by the possibility of there being a collective consciousness or some other way that people are able to connect with each other on a subconscious level and the potential that I might be able to become aware of that, or tap into it, through lucid dreaming.
There are many reasons why people choose to have OOBEs and for more information on that anyone can go to Astral Projection Messages Boards and read for themselves all the reasons "why".
From what I have read there are a number of different 'levels' involved in relation to the process from those just starting out right through to very accomplished astral projectionists.
Some do indeed use the ability for recreational purposes and promote this as being safer than drugs.
I have not read yet where fear and more importantly, facing fear have not been part of the whole process but that some have found it better than using pharmaceuticals or recreational drugs to subdue or bury their fears as a way of avoiding facing them.
The fear factor is really just entering into unknown realities which exist in relation to the human 'mind body soul spirit' etc... and those who have learned to face the fear not only learn from that but move through it.
Another thing which happens is that becoming awake to the existence of alternate realities allows the individual to see this physical reality in its proper place - not as 'the center of all existence' but rather, as a small part of a very large thing.
Also, the temptation to continue being caught up in physical reality drama has less of a hold on the individual because of this.
Still, every day we find ourselves back in this reality so the idea is to bring back with us what we learn from this alternate experience called 'Astral'. Fearlessness.
Some confuse the physical and the astral and create superstitious stories designed to help them subdue the necessity of facing their fears and from the 'monsters' created in such stories they convince themselves and anyone else who might want to listen to them that there is real and present danger and that nobody should be purposefully engaging with the astral because 'evil lurks awaiting to pounce upon the unsuspecting.' (etc).
The source of this fearfulness resides squarely within this physical universe, notably focusing on Earth, because yes - there are indeed things to fear and be careful about - rapists, maniacs, murderers, liars, cheats, thieves, bullies, liars, hustlers, ... the list goes on...
These things have consistently proven by their very existence and in your face characteristics, to being something to be careful of, and such things even want you to fear them because that way those things can manipulate the individual.
Facing fear in OOBEs helps the individual face fears in 'the real world' - stand up to those things and not take crap from those things.
One of my first OOBE-type experiences allowed me to see 'the real world' in a new light and know with certainty that nothing in 'the real world' could ever frighten me again. I am grateful therefore, in having had the experience.
But in relation to the 'stories' told about 'that other' world , these have as much to do with perpetuating fear and paranoia here in this one and are just as likely a great deal of the reason why so much crap happens in 'this' world.
So the idea is to break from that loop of fear inducement and face those things which otherwise cripple your spiritual abilities.
Wake up to what conscious experience is all about.
Face the fear and overcome all of it.
Based upon what I have studied related to Astral Projection, below is a rough chart of the 'levels'.
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