The Afterlife is Real (reincarnate, demons, create, choices)

[Nozzferrahhtoo]

Originally Posted by arleigh

Having personally dealt with......I have had many expirences.......I have witnessed.....

So your entire point is based on unverifiable, possibly invented, personal anecdote? Anecdote is not evidence thanks. You could simply be making all of the above up. But 100% consistently we find that such events never happen under any kind of controlled or observed conditions. They only ever seem to happen in the realms of anecdote and privacy. So either god is massively shy.... or you people are just making things up for us.

Originally Posted by arleigh

Can you smell what a dog smells ? Or hear what he hears? NO Wthout assisance can you see specrtoms of light beyond normal human capabilities ?NO Can you see radaition ? Is it real ? How do you know it's real ?

Lots of ways actually which you would know if you learned about science rather than talking about it all the time.

But even if we did not, all you are doing here is presenting "Argument from Ignorance". Basically all you are saying is "There are things you do not know.... therefore the stuff I am making up is credible or true".

You are acting like our lack of ability to see or know certain things is itself evidence for stuff you are simply making up. You are presenting absence of evidence AS evidence for nonsense claims. And then inventing and assigning biases to people to explain away why they find that approach entirely unconvincing.

Originally Posted by arleigh

The existance of an after life have been documented by people having died and their bodies been shipped to the morgue and their spirit/soul traveling great distances and back having to find where their body had been moved to and comming back to life.

Right and I assume you have links verifying such events that are not just blog posts written by people like yourself??? Please show me documentation verifying people in morgues coming back to life and we can discuss them on a case by case basis. Something tells me however, that like everything else above, you are just making stuff up again.

[SeekerSA]

Originally Posted by ovcatto

Sorry for being off topic BUT; both humans and other animals adapt to their environment and many, many none human animals do indeed adapt their environment to their needs.

Not off topic, I was generalising and thinking more along the lines of deep sea critters that really cannot change their environment. They would and do not survive when accidentally caught and brought to the surface. Perhaps you have beavers in mind? They do adapt their environment by building dams.

Another adaptee would be cave animals that are ess blind. Those eco systems.

[soUlwounD]

It is okay for you to believe after life and stuff. You know some of us non believers wants to die. No afterlives, just death. Just end. You are free to believe anything what you want.

But don't break human rights for trying to deny my personal rights to my death and to my end.

That is what I do.

It is not away from anyone to let people die, let people die if they want to without after lifes.

Set people free, leave other people alone.

I am not taking YOUR afterlife away from you , you can have it if you want it, not my business

In any case if someone tries to steal my rights from me and tries to force me to live in any kind of space, time or matter, my revenge will be millions of time worse than any imagined hell ever. So keep your hands off my corpse!

Like you believers believe, people have a chance for revenge after dying if people don't give them the peace they want.

Give people their peace

[Curiousqueen]

Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo

I don't. For a number of reasons.

For example we are all human and share similar brain structures. A brain under stress in one person is likely to act similarly to a brain under stress in another. As such it would be MORE fascinating if there was a massive divergence in descriptions of the after life. Not convergence like you describe.

Secondly there is a reason why people who describe UFO encounters all describe the same kind of alien. And that reason is Stephen Spielberg. He placed in our minds an imagine of aliens and that is the image most often described by people claiming to have been abducted by aliens. CULTURAL NORMS dictate often the descriptions people give of such events. Near death experience is no different in this. People experiencing them experience what their culture expects them to.
.

I still do. I doubt a 5yo have anything to gain by telling accounts similar to what others have experienced. Even more mind boggling are blind people with their own unexplained *visuals.

Personally, I've had no encounters with aliens or UFOs. I've watched Spielberg movies and they have made no impact on my OBEs

Culturally, this goes against everything I was taught growing up in a religious household but I somehow managed to break away and question things I was taught never to question

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by mordant

I know you greatly dislike any talk of "emergent properties" when talking about chaotic / complex systems but I am not going to stop using a perfectly valid evocative term because it is inconvenient for you. This is basic complex systems theory and has wide applicability. I'm sorry you don't like that.

You mistake my concern. However evocative and useful it may be in discussing complex systems . . . it is NOT a scientific explanation. It is an observation, period. This is the kind of disingenuous behavior of those using science that is most disturbing and annoying. . . . pretending observation equals explanation. It does NOT. Repeatedly observing a phenomenon is not the same as explaining it.

There are lots of intelligent people who do not see that the properties and attributes of human consciousness "cannot" reside in the human brain. And who feel that there's a lot of evidence that it DOES. I consider it just barely possible, though increasingly unlikely, that the brain is but a transceiver for consciousness that is located "elsewhere" either in this dimension or some other. I don't "REFUSE" to acknowledge some established "cannot" even if you are convinced it's a "cannot".

I understand. Abstractions only exist in consciousness . . . but consciousness itself is seen as an abstraction that is often called an illusion. The difference is that consciousness is a composite we experience as Self that actually interacts with reality in identifiable ways . . . unlike other abstractions or illusions. Once you understand that consciousness is a distinct and unique composite energy form produced by the brain . . . its locus becomes problematic. As a composite form of energy (not individual activity in the brain) . . . it cannot reside in any form of matter (vis. energy/mass equivalence) . . . like fire cannot reside in the combustibles that produce it. I concede that this sort of abstract thought is not easy to either comprehend or accept.

When a conscious entity is directly measurable these arguments will go away and I will go with the evidence wherever it takes us. As will you. In that regard we are the same. I just think you're jumping the gun, and probably guessing wrong in the bargain.

It is not a guess FOR ME, mordant . . . you forget it all began and continues with my personal experiences. This is why I was interested in hearing about your experiences.

[Curiousqueen]

Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo

So you say but you could simply be making that up, as many here do. But by all means test your claim under a useful methodology. For example there have been studies in hospitals that place unmissable objects in places where OBEs and NDEs are reported often. Objects that can only be seen if people really were "floating above their body" and other areas they claim to be while unconscious.

Guess how many positive results have been attained so far? Go on guess? ZERO. Absolutely and utterly zero. Many many people claim to have had these experiences while nearly dead on a hospital bed. MANY. But if even ONE of them came back saying "I was floating over my body, I could see all the doctors.... and by the way did you know there is a MASSIVE and UNMISSABLE digital read out on top of that cupboard over there with the number 1234 on it????" I would start to believe your claims here.

But not a SINGLE case has returned positive which suggests that while such experiences happen.... and while they seem quite real to people such as yourself..... there is absolutely ZERO reason to think they exist anywhere but in your imagination.

You say such experiences could never be verified, but I think they could. The only problem is, as I showed above, that when people DO attempt to verify them the results are always negative.

The same mean spirited, disingenuous and outright false claim you made on another thread. I am perfectly open to the POSSIBILITY that such things exist. I just acknowledge that at this moment in time there is not an iota of even an ounce of argument, evidence, data or reasoning to suggest they actually do.

You and people like you are all too keen to misconstrue concluding a claim is unsubstantiated as being the same as saying the claim is outright impossible.

Once again to rectify your error: One can be perfectly open to the possibility of things like this while ALSO recognizing there is no reason to lend them credence. The moment however you stop moaning about people being close minded who actually are not... and instead start evidencing or substantiating your claims.... then you will make progress.

But no, you do not do that, you instead throw out mantras like "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" while pretending people are not open who actually could not BE more open. You are engaged in nothing more than propaganda and ad hominem and whatiffery in other words.

And once again I do not see the relevance of the quote either way. Perhaps you can adumbrate your reasoning as to how it would be a support of the after life.

1. It is not my intention to be "mean spirited"
2. "Stop moaning about people who are close minded" I actually have noticed people are open to the possibility as Mordant puts it. I just didn't have the chance to write my acknowledgement about it here.
3."Start evidencing and substantiating your claim" which is exactly what I was trying to understand. I'm not a scientist but your style of questioning seems to attack as if I already need to be an expert on the fundamentals of scientific experimentation and methodology. I've asked Mordant what types of info and how to seek credibility in an earlier post. I am analyzing what I can state without people throwing in aliens, UFOs, fairies and leprechauns in the mix in an attempt to make this whole issue seem ridiculous to even investigate. I can also invite you to try and experiment with ways to self induce OBEs because I'm interested on obtaining steps to take to make my claims more credible.

[Terryj]

Originally Posted by Curiousqueen

1. It is not my intention to be "mean spirited"
2. "Stop moaning about people who are close minded" I actually have noticed people are open to the possibility as Mordant puts it. I just didn't have the chance to write my acknowledgement about it here.
3."Start evidencing and substantiating your claim" which is exactly what I was trying to understand. I'm not a scientist but your style of questioning seems to attack as if I already need to be an expert on the fundamentals of scientific experimentation and methodology. I've asked Mordant what types of info and how to seek credibility in an earlier post. I am analyzing what I can state without people throwing in aliens, UFOs, fairies and leprechauns in the mix in an attempt to make this whole issue seem ridiculous to even investigate. I can also invite you to try and experiment with ways to self induce OBEs because I'm interested on obtaining steps to take to make my claims more credible.

Have you read any of Paul Twitchell's books also the series of books "Life and Teaching of the Masters of the Far East" by Baird T Spalding deal with this subject matter at lengths, the "Mahatma Letters" also deals with this subject among other topics, these you can find on-line.

OBE are credible, but only to those who have experienced them and this makes the subject very subjective.

[Curiousqueen]

Originally Posted by Terryj

Have you read any of Paul Twitchell's books also the series of books "Life and Teaching of the Masters of the Far East" by Baird T Spalding deal with this subject matter at lengths, the "Mahatma Letters" also deals with this subject among other topics, these you can find on-line.

OBE are credible, but only to those who have experienced them and this makes the subject very subjective.

I'll try to look those up. Thank you for the info
And yes, it is subjective as I am unable to produce solid evidence that will satisfy skeptics but I have been trying. There have been times I have been able to bring back info (like what someone is wearing or what they were doing at the time) I shouldn't otherwise know but to achieve detailed mastery on a consistent basis is difficult. Maintaining focus, full awareness and control is extremely difficult when detachment occurs. I am surprised at times when it does happen. If I don't focus beforehand on the environment I wish to go to (like parents home) I end up in areas I can't recognize and I don't know how or why this happens. Being overly emotional at all makes me pop right back in. Remembering what it is I need to do when I'm out is also a challenge. I don't fully understand it but it happens and it does feel real. It is more than just a lucid dream to me. I'm in search for others and answers. Doing it is exhausting and I wish I had the means, finances, knowledge and technology to really do the research. I do what I can with what I have. Thanks again for the info. I really appreciate it.

[Terryj]

Originally Posted by Curiousqueen

I'll try to look those up. Thank you for the info
And yes, it is subjective as I am unable to produce solid evidence that will satisfy skeptics but I have been trying. There have been times I have been able to bring back info (like what someone is wearing or what they were doing at the time) I shouldn't otherwise know but to achieve detailed mastery on a consistent basis is difficult. Maintaining focus, full awareness and control is extremely difficult when detachment occurs. I am surprised at times when it does happen. If I don't focus beforehand on the environment I wish to go to (like parents home) I end up in areas I can't recognize and I don't know how or why this happens. Being overly emotional at all makes me pop right back in. Remembering what it is I need to do when I'm out is also a challenge. I don't fully understand it but it happens and it does feel real. It is more than just a lucid dream to me. I'm in search for others and answers. Doing it is exhausting and I wish I had the means, finances, knowledge and technology to really do the research. I do what I can with what I have. Thanks again for the info. I really appreciate it.

You also might want to look into groups like Eckankar. My Dad was a big fan of Paul Twitchell and read a number of his books, my Dad also taught me the techniques of OBE's which I used to do all the time, not so much any more.

[Nozzferrahhtoo]

Originally Posted by Curiousqueen

I still do. I doubt a 5yo have anything to gain by telling accounts similar to what others have experienced.

Who said anything about them having anything to "gain"? I certainly did not and it has nothing to do with the point I actually did make. Similar brain make up and similar societal back grounds were what I was talking about. Not personal gain. Perhaps re-read my post and reply to what I actually did say rather than something you just imagined.

Originally Posted by Curiousqueen

Even more mind boggling are blind people with their own unexplained *visuals.

Not really. They too have the same brain structures, societal back ground, and linguistic constraints. They spend their whole life using language constructed by sighted people and as such when they attempt to explain and describe personal experiences they will do so using that language.

By all means however do present some of these cases rather than simply referring vaguely to them. Where are the quotes, cations, studies and back ups for all this? Or are you still just making things up as you go along?

Originally Posted by Curiousqueen

Personally, I've had no encounters with aliens or UFOs. I've watched Spielberg movies and they have made no impact on my OBEs

I never claimed they would, should or could. Once again you appear to be replying to something you made up in place of what I actually said. Why you feel the need to keep doing that is something only you know.

Originally Posted by Curiousqueen

1. It is not my intention to be "mean spirited"

I never said it was your intention. I merely said it is what you are doing. Intention or otherwise. Third time asking: Please respond to the things I actually did say, not what you appended by yourself.

Originally Posted by Curiousqueen

2. "Stop moaning about people who are close minded" I actually have noticed people are open to the possibility as Mordant puts it.

So you have noticed it, yet you keep writing things that imply otherwise. Hardly honest is it. Once again, we are more than open to the possibility. But being open to the possibility does not even remotely change the fact that there is nothing to suggest it is actually so.

The gulf between "X is possible" and "There is any reason to think X is actually true" is wide and you have not even taken the first step across it.

Originally Posted by Curiousqueen

3."Start evidencing and substantiating your claim" which is exactly what I was trying to understand. I'm not a scientist but your style of questioning seems to attack as if I already need to be an expert on the fundamentals of scientific experimentation and methodology.

I did not say anything about science. You did. I asked for substantiation of ANY type because so far you have offered precisely ZERO. Any argument, evidence, data or reasoning AT ALL would be nice. Scientific or otherwise. I am not limiting the discussion to science, you are. Probably in order to deflect from the fact you have nothing to offer.

So as I said stop talking about the evidence and start actually presenting some. This is a thread about the afterlife being real. If you think it is real I want to hear the reasoning for that claim.

Originally Posted by Curiousqueen

I am analyzing what I can state without people throwing in aliens, UFOs, fairies and leprechauns in the mix in an attempt to make this whole issue seem ridiculous to even investigate.

No one is doing any such thing. It is called analogy. People use analogy often in an attempt to make their point CLEARER. It is only you pretending that it makes it less clear.

Originally Posted by Curiousqueen

I can also invite you to try and experiment with ways to self induce OBEs because I'm interested on obtaining steps to take to make my claims more credible.

You assume I havent. You do not know me. Do not assume.