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This is question that makes the self proclaimed "rationalists" run for the hills and one that I have never received a good answer to. Why should I believe in love, but not GOD?
No one will answer any of your questions to your satisfaction, you are merely a hateful miserable person, spewing your hatred under the guise of your religious delusions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS LOVE!
And as long as you wear you delusional beliefs like a badge of hatred, your last statement will prove prophetically true for you.
The levels of delusion I have seen here by a few is clearly a mental illness, and I really don't expect the mentally ill to grasp the concepts of rational thought.
Victorianpunk, I always find your posts interesting, even if I don't always agree with them. This one is particularly interesting because, when I was 30 (I'm 50 now), I thought pretty much the same thing that you did about romantic love. I'd never been in a successful romantic relationship, and literally everyone close to me was either divorced, never-married, or experiencing serious problems in their relationships. I considered myself happily single and had plenty of hobbies and interests. I received a marketing call for a free consultation with a dating service, and feeling argumentive, I took the sales rep up on it. I went through my litany of why I considered romantic love to be an evolutionary by-product meant to get two people together long enough to have kids, but I did say I'd like to meet women who were interested in having short-term relationships for as long as the endorphin rushes lasted. The sales rep finally admitted that she couldn't fault my logic, and I was smug in having won the debate. Years later, it occurred to me that she probably realized that arguing with me was pointless, and that she'd be doing her female clients a disservice by matching me with them.
At age 35, I started feeling lonely and thinking that maybe romantic love was possible. Several people close to me seemed to have found it by that time. I don't know why I started longing for love, but at the time, I attributed it to God metaphorically smacking me upside the head and telling me what an idiot I was. (I was more of a theist and less of an agnostic back then.) To make a long story short, I did a lot of soul searching and self-analysis (seeing a therapist probably would have helped, but I was too stubborn and scared to do so), and I eventually figured out why I was so terrified of love and emotion. At age 40, I fell in love with a wonderful woman. Two years later, we got married, and we're still very much in love. Yeah, the initial fireworks fade with time, but a deeper kind of romantic love replaces it.
With the attitude you have about romantic love, I pretty much guarantee you're not going to find it, because it doesn't sound like you're really open to the possibility. Maybe you will be someday, and maybe you won't. I'm not being judgmental; some people live their whole lives happily unattached.
My point is that romantic love is as real as any other abstract concept such as truth, beauty, happiness, and so on. You seem to define God as an abstract concept, so in that sense, I find the main premise of your argument (equating God and romantic love) sound. I have a sense of spirituality, of awe, of the divine, of something greater than what humans can comprehend. Calling it "God" is convenient, but not necessarily helpful; as others have pointed out, most people who speak of God are talking about an objective supernatural entity, not an abstract metaphorical concept. I don't believe in the Judeo-Christian version of God. I believe in the possibility of God as a higher level of order (possibly intelligent in some sense) to the universe than we currently understand, but I don't know for a fact. Thus I consider myself an agnostic.
Beyond a certain point, intellectually dissecting abstract concepts to the subatomic level becomes an exercise in futility, because you can always come up with an argument and a counterargument to anything, as this thread demonstrates. Arguing why romantic love is an illusion makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you really want to experience love, you have to stop over-intellectualizing it. I had to "give up" in a very zen way before love became possible for me. Yes, I'm arguing in favor of both romantic love and spirituality (I consider Albert Einstein and Carl Sagan to have been spiritual, which isn't mutually exclusive of being an atheist), and I believe in their existence as subjective human experiences. Why deny ourselves life's joys, even if they are only chemically induced evolutionary by-products? I'm not going to deny myself the pleasure of eating tasty food or drinking alcohol just because both can be abused. I wouldn't want to live in a sci-fi cliche world where people subsist on "nutrient pills."
This thread brings up another interesting question: What, ultimately, is pure rationalism? I don't think such a thing exists. It's an extremely useful tool or approach, but it needs to be balanced by appropriate amounts of emotion. I think that, at bottom, we're emotionally based creatures, and rationalism serves emotion. There's no objective "reason" for any of us to going on living, or to do anything at all. Has anyone ever read Melville's short story "Bartleby the Scrivener," about a man who can no longer think of a reason to do anything? His response to any request is, "I would prefer not to." Yet he doesn't summon the motivation to kill himself, either. Anyway, even scientific inquiry is driven by an emotional desire to learn. Logic is a process that brings satisfaction to those who employ it. Having an emotion-free society isn't rational, even if it were possible.
Okay, it's time to go home to my loving wife, a good dinner, and a glass of wine.
This is question that makes the self proclaimed "rationalists" run for the hills and one that I have never received a good answer to. Why should I believe in love, but not GOD?
Love (I am referring to the Romantic kind) is something that I am 90% sure does not really exists. Yes, indeed, there are chemical reactions in the brain that happen when someone has an experience with a "loved one", but that is mating, not love. It is a desire to breed, nothing more. Romantic attachmenet, passion, all of these things could easily be called what they are: Something that, in our distant evolutionary past, might have been beneficial, but is just a worthless delusion today.
Anti-Theists all the time say "look at all the evil religion has done to the world!" Well, my answer is simple: LOOK AT ALL THE EVIL DONE IN THE CONTEXT OF ROMANTIC LOVE!
Messy divorces, domestic violence, date rape, etc etc etc.
What are the figures for domestic violence? Let's see..."In a 1995-1996 study conducted in the 50 States and the District of Columbia, nearly 25% of women and 7.6% of men were raped and/or physically assaulted by a current or former spouse, cohabiting partner, or dating partner/acquaintance at some time in their lifetime (based on survey of 16,000 participants, equally male and female)" American Bar Association - Commission on Domestic Violence: Key Statistics
So...what about all the violence within the context of intimat relationships? Would there be any domestic violence if there was no domestic relationship? Of course not! And if love was real, then how come so much violence is a part of it? Can romantic relationships really offer anything positive to the world?
But wait, there's more! How about "being with someone your whole life?" A BIG FAT LIE! What is divorce like in America?....
" According to divorce statistics, it is estimated that between 40 percent and 50 percent of first marriages end in divorce in the United States. In some countries, divorce rates for first marriages exceed 50 percent."
Statistics of Divorce (http://ezinearticles.com/?Statistics-of-Divorce&id=1468444 - broken link)
And what happens after the marriage fails, as that looks very, VERY likely? Child support, alimony, lawyer fees etc. So, dear Rationalists...HOW F****IN' "RATIONAL" is marriage anyway?! It isn't!
But wait, THERE'S STILL MORE! How about murder by a "loved one?" Well, that happens allot too..."A woman dies as the result of spousal abuse every 6 hours in the U.S." Most Recent U.S. Spousal Murder Statistics
Every six hours! So, more women are killed by their husbands every week then people are killed in the name of Christianity every month (not to mention all the husbands killed by wifes and boyfriend/girlfriend murders)
Atheists always bring up the Crusades, which happened centuries ago, to show the "evils" of religion...but if I show them something like this: CNN.com - Wife, closeted lover guilty of husband's murder - Sep 29, 2006 that happened two years ago, would they agree with me about the evils of love?
Now, let's say one beats the odds and does not end up dead or beaten or divorced or any of the other horrible things that come with "love". What does love get you? It cost money, time, and effort. All things that, rationally, could be spent pursuing research papers or scientific research or any of the other things a good "rationalists" should be doing.
I mean, some religions expect you to tithe ten percent of your income to a church...in marriage, you are tithing 100% of your income to the marriage! Which is worse, financially?
I have a GOD. Will GOD ever beat me up, divorce me, or steal my money? No. To you, dear anti-theists, I ask...can your spouse or lover do those things? Indeed, they can! So, who is more likely to get screwed over: You by your "lover" or me by GOD? GOD has never disapointed me...have you ever been disapointed by a lover? If so, then why, logically, continue believing in romantic love?
"But, you need love" you say? Well...I NEED GOD! Just as I have an irrational belief in GOD, you have an irrational belief in love. The only difference, as I have shown, is that my belief can never hurt me and will never commit an act of violence against me.
Just as many Anti-Theists snicker and say "GOD is a crutch for the weak minded" or "GOD is irrational", I content that, as I proved above, Love is indeed irrational and for the weak minded. Why become depended on a human being for emotional support, considering how weak humans are? That is irrational and weak minded in the utmost.
Just as Atheists say that they are happy without GOD, I am happy without love. I have never been on a date and never had a girlfriend in my life, and I often see the pain "love" causes and think "I am not missing much". Just as you can live without GOD and think the whole thing silly, I can live without love and think the whole thing silly. Also, just as you "cannot live without love", I cannot live without GOD.
BUT: If love was GOD, I would be Agnostic. I do keep open the possibility of it existing and would like to date some day. I can, however, live a perfectly happy life without love.
However, while few anti-theists would ever try religion for a month and see what happens, I am indeed willing to try love for a time and see what happens...BUT I WILL NEVER SHUT MY SKEPTICS BRAIN OFF WHILE DOING SO. I will observe and be aware and coldly analytical, with no useless "faith" in the "chemistry", and I will even take notes. But, I have a strong feeling the empirical evidence will come to a conclusion that the "Rationalists" hypocrites refuse to believe:
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS LOVE!
I could give a rats bum what you believe in, your diatribe here will convert no one therefore you will not be getting extra stars in your crown in heaven. LOL.
victorianpunk: That was such an illogical post that it simply isn't worth the time to deconstruct. Besides, I think you're probably just posting such utter rubbish to get a laugh out of all the hackles you raise. I hope so, really. The only other alternative is mental illness.
Some funny comparisons you got there. Did you actually say that date rape is done in the name of Romantic Love?
Dude you are a complete retard. I'm fairly certain date rape and domestic violence isn't carried out in the name of romantic love.
Are you comparing instances of crimes of passion where there are a few victims committed by a few individuals or messy divorces where nobody dies to the crusades which is an organized war in the name of a religion where hundreds of thousands died?
Make a concise point, what are you trying to prove Love or God?
There is proof for love, it is caused by chemical reactions in the brain which can be studied. New research presented at the Society for Neuroscience meeting reveals aspects of what happens in the brain of someone feeling intense love, as well as the sensory and molecular processes involved in love and mating.
Notice how in real love we just want the other person and ourselves to be happy.
In your God's love, if we dont accept it, he tortures us for eternity. No wonder you think Date Rape is done in the name of True Romantic Love.
You seem very angry. Are you lonely since you seek comfort in the arms of another but reject love and romance in the name of your God?
victorianpunk: That was such an illogical post that it simply isn't worth the time to deconstruct. Besides, I think you're probably just posting such utter rubbish to get a laugh out of all the hackles you raise. I hope so, really. The only other alternative is mental illness.
She gave me a good laugh, didn't raise my hackles at all. I read it and thought what a sad and desperate attempt to prove god exists. Whatever people need to do to get through the day believing in santa jesus it really isn't my problem or my business.
Lindsey: If there is a god, it certainly isn't getting any help from its adherents! My hackles weren't raised either. I couldn't decide whether vp's post was funny or depressing. Both, I suppose.
Lindsey: If there is a god, it certainly isn't getting any help from its adherents! My hackles weren't raised either. I couldn't decide whether vp's post was funny or depressing. Both, I suppose.
I have lived among them too long to be depressed or surprised by their highly emotional need to believe in santa jesus.
They will come up with all kinds of fantastic justifications when in the end, why should they go through so much to justify it? If thats what they believe then sail on, believe it, embrace it, live it. Why should I care or be bothered.
All I ask for in the end in day to day life is keep your beliefs out of my face. I don't want to hear about it. Of course when I come on here I make comment but I do not interact with people in day to day life who have to beat the bible all the time. If I wanted to hear about your beliefs in my day to day life, I would ask, since I have expressed no interest, why can't they get the hint and shut up about it.
On here it sort of makes sense that they would come and make their case, a place where they can set down things as logically as posible at least in their mind. Makes no difference to me. I read them and just shake my head because its the same song and dance I have heard a thousand times before. Very little difference, same desperation to turn someone to believe what they do so they can get that extra star in their crown in heaven.
An entire wall of text..... could you try and keep your "arguments" short and to the point, please?
So this is your best 'argument' for your belief in god? How sad. Why do Christians keep doing this? "Oh, look, you can't see love, but you believe in it, so you should believe in MY God".
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk
I have a GOD. Will GOD ever beat me up, divorce me, or steal my money?
No, because your sky daddy doesn't exist. God is merely a delusion. A delusion cannot love you but it can do use by others to exploit you. All those people claiming to speak for that deity will certainly be happy to brainwash and fleece you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk
Love is indeed irrational and for the weak minded.
No, love is a biochemical reaction present in our species for evolutionarily advantageous reasons. It is not an entity or substance like oxygen but it's impact can be detected in brain scans. You said so yourself. Why are you contradicting yourself? Your whole post is a colossal failure, unless your intent was to look silly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk
"However, while few anti-theists would ever try religion for a month and see what happens"
I was a Christian for most of my life. You are sadly mistaken if you think I'm an atheist because I haven't ever been anything else. One of the major evils committed by religion is the brainwashing of children, myself among them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk
I have never been on a date and never had a girlfriend in my life.
I'm not surprised. I figure that our when you said date rape and domestic violence was done in the context of romantic love. This explains why you have no idea what you are talking about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk
BUT I WILL NEVER SHUT MY SKEPTICS BRAIN OFF WHILE DOING SO.
You're obviously enamoured and brain-washed into believing imaginary sky guys exist so there is NO way you COULD ever shut your "SKEPTICS BRAIN OFF". If you have any evidence to support the existence of your invisible man in the sky, then please, feel free to show it to us. If you believe in something for which you have no evidence, please stop referring to yourself as a skeptic, as you're clearly not.
What's so funny about this rant is that all it really is is a backhanded acknowledgement that believing in your God is totally irrational.
Location: where the moss is taking over the villages
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Even skeptics need & enjoy love!
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So, more women are killed by their husbands every week then people are killed in the name of Christianity every month (not to mention all the husbands killed by wifes and boyfriend/girlfriend murders)
Why you are wrong.
