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Old 07-19-2009, 06:10 PM
 
1,481 posts, read 2,160,973 times
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Now I notice in this little country of ours that religions can discriminate on who they employ.
I have no problem with this as long as I can also discriminate on who I employ.

So I take religious types would have no problems with a ad stating religious types not wanted, heathens only.

Or do you religious types believe in double standards ?
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Old 07-19-2009, 07:35 PM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,088 posts, read 20,757,440 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nzrugby View Post
Now I notice in this little country of ours that religions can discriminate on who they employ.
I have no problem with this as long as I can also discriminate on who I employ.

So I take religious types would have no problems with a ad stating religious types not wanted, heathens only.

Or do you religious types believe in double standards ?
I learned that the Creationist museum will only employ people who are creationists - or say they are.

"1. What is “religion” under Title VII?
Title VII protects all aspects of religious observance and practice as well as belief and defines religion very broadly for purposes of determining what the law covers. For purposes of Title VII, religion includes not only traditional, organized religions such as Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism, but also religious beliefs that are new, uncommon, not part of a formal church or sect, only subscribed to by a small number of people, or that seem illogical or unreasonable to others. An employee’s belief or practice can be “religious” under Title VII even if the employee is affiliated with a religious group that does not espouse or recognize that individual’s belief or practice, or if few – or no – other people adhere to it. Title VII’s protections also extend to those who are discriminated against or need accommodation because they profess no religious beliefs.
Religious beliefs include theistic beliefs (i.e. those that include a belief in God) as well as non-theistic “moral or ethical beliefs as to what is right and wrong which are sincerely held with the strength of traditional religious views.” Although courts generally resolve doubts about particular beliefs in favor of finding that they are religious, beliefs are not protected merely because they are strongly held. Rather, religion typically concerns “ultimate ideas” about “life, purpose, and death.” Social, political, or economic philosophies, as well as mere personal preferences, are not “religious” beliefs protected by Title VII."

(so atheism/humanism qualifies for religious protection but is not a 'religion'.)

"employers may not refuse to recruit, hire, or promote individuals of a certain religion, impose stricter promotion requirements for persons of a certain religion, or impose more or different work requirements on an employee because of that employee’s religious beliefs or practices
employers may not refuse to hire an applicant simply because he does not share the employer’s religious beliefs, and conversely may not select one applicant over another based on a preference for employees of a particular religion"

but

"2. Are there any exceptions to who is covered by Title VII’s religion provisions?
Yes. While Title VII’s jurisdictional rules apply to all religious discrimination claims under the statute, see EEOC Compliance Manual, “Threshold Issues,” Compliance Manual Chapter 2: Threshold Issues, specially-defined “religious organizations” and “religious educational institutions” are exempt from certain religious discrimination provisions, and a “ministerial exception” bars Title VII claims by employees who serve in clergy roles."

Questions and Answers about Religious Discrimination in the Workplace

I'm not sure whether the Creation Museum qualifies. It is presented as representing Creation 'science' rather than a 'religious educational institution'
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Old 07-20-2009, 03:46 AM
 
4,511 posts, read 7,523,742 times
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good information, thank you both.
in other parts of the world, discrimination is so subtle and widespread that the "lawmakers" appear to have given up on dealing with it in a reasonable fashion and make it disappear at the bottom of their administrative drawers.

for daily encounters, however, mobbing is the accepted mode of the game, imho.
very sophisticated, indeed.


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Old 07-20-2009, 04:10 AM
 
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"(so atheism/humanism qualifies for religious protection but is not a 'religion'.)"

Ah, but it is a religion...they worship themselves, their rationalizations and their intellectualizations.
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Old 07-20-2009, 05:14 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,088 posts, read 20,757,440 times
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Originally Posted by nmweatherman View Post
"(so atheism/humanism qualifies for religious protection but is not a 'religion'.)"

Ah, but it is a religion...they worship themselves, their rationalizations and their intellectualizations.
That really depends upon how you define 'worship'. But then in the evidential absence of divine beings, divine wisdom and divine intelligence, there's only ours to worship.
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Old 07-20-2009, 05:35 AM
 
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^
with the "ours" being an ever so convenient illusion to hang on to for dear life... until you realize it was only yours..."


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Old 07-20-2009, 07:02 AM
 
4,655 posts, read 5,073,049 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nzrugby View Post
Now I notice in this little country of ours that religions can discriminate on who they employ.
I have no problem with this as long as I can also discriminate on who I employ.

So I take religious types would have no problems with a ad stating religious types not wanted, heathens only.

Or do you religious types believe in double standards ?

You can discriminate. If you're hiring an employee, they should have basic requirements that allow them or disallow them to do the job. If you're hiring a dancer for a adults-only establishment, it's reasonable to expect that she have certain attributes. Likewise, if you're hiring a church worker, it's reasonable to expect that he/she have certain beliefs.
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Old 07-20-2009, 08:44 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,088 posts, read 20,757,440 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post
You can discriminate. If you're hiring an employee, they should have basic requirements that allow them or disallow them to do the job. If you're hiring a dancer for a adults-only establishment, it's reasonable to expect that she have certain attributes. Likewise, if you're hiring a church worker, it's reasonable to expect that he/she have certain beliefs.
You are really impressing me. This is quite reasonable. If you hire someone to do graphic design, it is not discrimination to choose those that can do it. There again, you should not refuse to hire someone who could do it the grounds that they did not share your religious views. Similarly, if you run a registry office that does same - sex marriage, an employee who disapproves should look for another job, not demand that the job description be altered to accommodate that person's disapproval of same - sex marriage.

And again, if a creation museum wants someone to service animatronic dinosaurs, they should, of course, prefer someone who knows how to do it, but not refuse to hire someone who can do it on the grounds that they didn't believe in Creationism.

Again, if I was running an atheist bookshop, I would not refuse to hire someone who was a Christian, so long as they could do the job. However, if that person started fiddling with the book purchase orders so as to reflect their own religious views, I'd think of replacing them.
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Old 07-20-2009, 10:44 AM
 
4,655 posts, read 5,073,049 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
You are really impressing me. This is quite reasonable. If you hire someone to do graphic design, it is not discrimination to choose those that can do it. There again, you should not refuse to hire someone who could do it the grounds that they did not share your religious views. Similarly, if you run a registry office that does same - sex marriage, an employee who disapproves should look for another job, not demand that the job description be altered to accommodate that person's disapproval of same - sex marriage.

And again, if a creation museum wants someone to service animatronic dinosaurs, they should, of course, prefer someone who knows how to do it, but not refuse to hire someone who can do it on the grounds that they didn't believe in Creationism.

The creation museum? Yeah--if the employee didn't have a lot of contact with the public and be expected to represent their beliefs on an issue I don't have an issue with hiring the best technically qualified candidate. I'd say the same thing, honestly, for building a church website, or plumbing, or electrician.

Again, if I was running an atheist bookshop, I would not refuse to hire someone who was a Christian, so long as they could do the job. However, if that person started fiddling with the book purchase orders so as to reflect their own religious views, I'd think of replacing them.

I honestly don't disagree with you on the above points. If I could not, in good conscience, issue a marriage license to a homosexual couple and my job absolutely required me to do it without unreasonable accomodation (say, my co-worker volunteered to cover the window for 5 minutes), then I'd need to find a new job.

The exception to the rule that I can think of would be if I was running a service such as a pharmacy and it was against my religious views to provide birth control to people. At least in my town there are a million pharmacies. I should not be required to violate my beliefs by providing them. If I was an employee of a pharmacy that sold them, I should be required to do what my employer requires of me or find a new job.
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Old 07-20-2009, 03:15 PM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,088 posts, read 20,757,440 times
Reputation: 5930
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post
I honestly don't disagree with you on the above points. If I could not, in good conscience, issue a marriage license to a homosexual couple and my job absolutely required me to do it without unreasonable accomodation (say, my co-worker volunteered to cover the window for 5 minutes), then I'd need to find a new job.

The exception to the rule that I can think of would be if I was running a service such as a pharmacy and it was against my religious views to provide birth control to people. At least in my town there are a million pharmacies. I should not be required to violate my beliefs by providing them. If I was an employee of a pharmacy that sold them, I should be required to do what my employer requires of me or find a new job.
Kidbrick...I'm well, I'm speechless. I agree with everything you say here. If I understand you correctly about leaving a pharmacy that sold birth-control pills. I know there are some places that take the soft option of allowing certain employees to opt out of doing certain work of which they disapprove - not always on the basis of religion! but I disapprove of that practice.
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