Interesting quotes from Thomas Jefferson. (one totally slamming the trinity)
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On another forum I remarked that an Obama speech about reading the Bible amd coming to different conclusions than the ones so often claimes was pretty much in line with what the doubters say.
That's very much the impression I get. They don't believe in the Bible as it is but as they think it ought to be. Well, we see it here. People rolling up with some personalized version of Christianity that seems to come from no-where other than their own head.
Trouble is that 'love' can mean whatever you want it to mean - even burning unbelievers at the stake for the good of their souls.
You and I can agree on several things about religion.
Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus."
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Adrian Van der Kemp, 30 July, 1816
And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823
Another good one is “The Faiths of Our Fathers” by A. J. Mapp, Jr. It covers them in a balanced method, never really giving an answer to the Agnostic/Atheist question but giving a clear view of the non Christian views of several of the Founding fathers. It is a short book close to 200 pages, but an easy and interesting read.
As best I can remember it has a number of Jefferson's letters to Adams and the return letters from Adams.
I'd recommend the writings of Thomas Paine to anyone who wishes to truly understand the founding fathers, as his influence was far greater than most people realize. I like his works too because he appeals to my inner deist. (Although I am not a "true" deist in that I do not believe in a creator entity, but I do espouse a futilty of religions should something as such exist)
One thing that we must remember is to keep in context the time and issues of the founding fathers. A concept for a governemnt, not governed by absolute monarchy, theocracy, totalitairan parliment or tribal lords was innovative and not popular. Most, but not all, colonists were from Enlgand (although there were Spanish & french colonies and spanish, french and other European citizenry living within the enlglish colonies.) BUT So much of the concern was how to make a government that was NOT LIke England's. And a big part of that had to be centered around the seperation of church and state, asthe Church of England was very powerful and influential at the time (Not to mention the struggling influence of Rome on the rest of Europe) Keep in mind too that this is post reformation, post Renaisance, post dark ages, so the influence of the Church was waning, but if the year were 1775, then the founding fathers had to look at masses of people who still wanted to seek refuge and security in a theocratic states, for whatever the reason.
I would point out too that religious freedom was an issue, because England had adopted the Church of England as an official religion, the founding fathers wished to avoid having an official religion.
Interesting fact: Look at the colony which had the closest thing to theocracy: Early on, they had laws controlling each aspect of a person's life, all based on religion, and this included a ban on the celebration of Christmas and the death penalty for those accused of practicing witchcraft.
It is the Puritans of Massachusetts, those nice loving Christians that followed the nice, loving Pilgrams, who wanted a theocracy and for a while, more or less had one.
Thankfully, our founding fathers brought about the greatest document we have: The Constitution (Sorry, not the Bible) It protects us from theocratic rule of groups like the pilgrams, the branch dividians, the church of christ , the Vatican etc
You and I can agree on several things about religion.
Thanks. The more we can agree the better I like it. I really do prefer to amicably discuss than irascibly wrangle.
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