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Old 05-27-2007, 11:32 PM
 
743 posts, read 2,228,159 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midnightbirdgirl View Post
But why are those in the pews silent?
MBG



I don't think Catholics in the pews have been silent at all about our complete horror and repugnance at some of the recently exposed crimes comitted against children by our own clergy.
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Old 05-28-2007, 01:19 AM
 
Location: Hickville USA
5,865 posts, read 3,744,187 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beth ann View Post


I don't think Catholics in the pews have been silent at all about our complete horror and repugnance at some of the recently exposed crimes comitted against children by our own clergy.
Not trying to start something here, it's just that our original questions really haven't been answered. We all agree that it is evil and beyond comprehension, but all we hear about are the incidences themselves and where they have sent the clergy responsible to some type of slap-on-the-wrist sex offender "monastery" in Mexico.

It's kind of ironic too, that this thread has popped back up especially since an atheist saying if they ever were to become saved, they would want to be Catholic. And then their argument against the sex scandals is justifying it by saying it's okay because there are probably other denominations preachers having sex with people they are not supposed to. Do you see where we are coming from here? It doesn't seem to be viewed as anything other than just a sex offense. What about the lifetime of scars they leave on these little boys? Where is the outrage?

The turning away or turning a blind eye to this is very disturbing to Christians. We never hear of the uproar and intolerance of such acts by the members of the Catholic faith. If a protestant pastor does something like this.....he goes to jail, not out of the country to a day camp for pedophiles. Protestant Christians do not tolerate this from anyone, even those closest to us or in high places. It doesn't matter what you profess or if you wear a robe.....these people need to be permanently removed from their positions as church leaders and GO TO JAIL.
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Old 05-28-2007, 01:58 AM
 
743 posts, read 2,228,159 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midnightbirdgirl View Post
But why are those in the pews silent?
MBG
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northsouth View Post
Not trying to start something here, it's just that our original questions really haven't been answered. We all agree that it is evil and beyond comprehension, but all we hear about are the incidences themselves and where they have sent the clergy responsible to some type of slap-on-the-wrist sex offender "monastery" in Mexico.

It's kind of ironic too, that this thread has popped back up especially since an atheist saying if they ever were to become saved, they would want to be Catholic. And then their argument against the sex scandals is justifying it by saying it's okay because there are probably other denominations preachers having sex with people they are not supposed to. Do you see where we are coming from here? It doesn't seem to be viewed as anything other than just a sex offense. What about the lifetime of scars they leave on these little boys? Where is the outrage?

The turning away or turning a blind eye to this is very disturbing to Christians. We never hear of the uproar and intolerance of such acts by the members of the Catholic faith. If a protestant pastor does something like this.....he goes to jail, not out of the country to a day camp for pedophiles. Protestant Christians do not tolerate this from anyone, even those closest to us or in high places. It doesn't matter what you profess or if you wear a robe.....these people need to be permanently removed from their positions as church leaders and GO TO JAIL.
I totally agree with you as to how disturbing this is! I am clarifying that Catholics in the pews (as I've been one of them) are outraged! We want crimminal priests removed from their positions and jailed, as they should be. We have alot of righteous anger, shock and heartbreak.

I think the Church absolutely made huge mistakes on how alot of these cases were handled 20 or so years ago. The entire mental health field was also different then....there is much more known about pedophilia now (like how these guys are repeat offenders and not condusive to rehab). In general, sex crimes against children are being much more highly investigted, policed and monitored now everywhere...as it should have always been.

Every Catholic diocese in our country was mandated to put into place child protection and victim assistance services, and to also be audited and checked regularly by outside authorities.

So...getting back to MBG comment that Catholics in the pews aren't outraged? Well, that's simply not true....in fact, it's quite the opposite.
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Old 05-28-2007, 01:41 PM
 
508 posts, read 1,669,028 times
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I dont know what would be unacceptable. I have had some horrific things happen in my life including suicide, murder, drugs, alcohol, abuse, sexual sin, and so far I have found that I have been able to forgive people including myself. Maybe because I define forgivness as turning the situation over to God and allowing him to deal with it as he sees fit. I dont forget and I dont allow myself to be victimized but I do forgive and give everything up to God.

I pray that the day never comes when something happens that causes me to hold on and not forgive. That would be a tragic day for my soul.
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Old 04-29-2023, 02:28 PM
 
15,792 posts, read 6,856,651 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brittZ View Post
I dont know what would be unacceptable. I have had some horrific things happen in my life including suicide, murder, drugs, alcohol, abuse, sexual sin, and so far I have found that I have been able to forgive people including myself. Maybe because I define forgivness as turning the situation over to God and allowing him to deal with it as he sees fit. I dont forget and I dont allow myself to be victimized but I do forgive and give everything up to God.

I pray that the day never comes when something happens that causes me to hold on and not forgive. That would be a tragic day for my soul.
I am not Christian and i did not realize until I came across this forum on CD that forgiveness is such a fraught religious edict for Christians.
As the bolded say, that is the only way one can deal with hurt that was inflicted on us - to let god be god and judge as he would.
As the victim we need to move on and become a survivor. The position of not-forgiving only continues the torment because there is no movement forward if we stay not-forgiving.

Having said that i place very little importance to this matter of forgiving anyway. Forgiving to me means I love this person and want him in my life again and for that reason I will forgive him because he has expressed enoch contrition to make me believe he has CHANGED, and not the same person who hurt me.
If that is not the case, i feel no obligation as such to forgive. It is all about me, me, me. My survival and my mental health so i return whole to being who I am, someone who can love and be giving, and function to fulfill my responsibilities. Not for ever a victim. I will let god judge both me and him and do as he will. I will not give it another thought.
As i said I am not a Christian. My religion tells me neither to judge nor to indulge in revenge. Let things go and be centered. Forgiveness and punishment is between the perpetrator and the Divine.
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Old 04-29-2023, 03:21 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,119 posts, read 23,785,288 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
I am not Christian and i did not realize until I came across this forum on CD that forgiveness is such a fraught religious edict for Christians.
As the bolded say, that is the only way one can deal with hurt that was inflicted on us - to let god be god and judge as he would.
As the victim we need to move on and become a survivor. The position of not-forgiving only continues the torment because there is no movement forward if we stay not-forgiving.

Having said that i place very little importance to this matter of forgiving anyway. Forgiving to me means I love this person and want him in my life again and for that reason I will forgive him because he has expressed enoch contrition to make me believe he has CHANGED, and not the same person who hurt me.
If that is not the case, i feel no obligation as such to forgive. It is all about me, me, me. My survival and my mental health so i return whole to being who I am, someone who can love and be giving, and function to fulfill my responsibilities. Not for ever a victim. I will let god judge both me and him and do as he will. I will not give it another thought.
As i said I am not a Christian. My religion tells me neither to judge nor to indulge in revenge. Let things go and be centered. Forgiveness and punishment is between the perpetrator and the Divine.
The bolded speaks for itself.
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Old 04-29-2023, 03:32 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,493 posts, read 7,287,682 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Northsouth View Post
What would make you cut someone out of your life? It's obvious from reading all these threads that some things/sins bother some people more than others.

In my case, it's an abusive parent. I struggled with trying to have a relationship with him in spite of what he had done not just to me but everyone around him. I felt that I had to be the bigger person and forgive, because one of the Ten Commandments is to honor your mother and father.
After being completely humiliated in public (in a Christian bookstore, no less) because he once again was arguing with someone, the salesperson, about how dare they push anything other than the King James Version of the Bible on anyone (it's a bookstore, for crying out loud) - I experienced what I like to call an Alfred Hitchcock moment. You know, like scenes from his movies where a defining moment is defined even further by the zoom of the camera lense....it all came crashing in at me.

All the things he had ever done and swore that he didn't, all the things he was still doing and never once admitting to having done anything wrong or uttering the words I'm sorry or please forgive me....it was like I was in a vacuum in the middle of that store, frozen with my mouth dropped open. On the way back I confronted him and I remember two things that he said. One, he said that someone had to set that woman straight because she was wrong, and the other was that the only reason I was any kind of decent human being was because of him. My response? No, Dad, I am a decent human being IN SPITE of you. I walked away and he was still blabbing as I closed the garage door. That was 6 years ago.

What would force you to completely remove someone from your life? Is there someone you need to remove right now or have you had to do this already? I got past the honor your parents thing with the help of my mother. God says to honor, He doesn't say you have to take abuse. I honor him by staying away from him. No more harsh words, anger, rage, hitting, or me feeling inadequate in every way. I have a relationship with my God in spite of the way he twisted religion and the Bible. But I had to fall hard before I searched for the truth for myself. Don't make my same mistakes....life is never good without Christ! What say you?
As many have experienced, I too, am familiar with " toxic " relatives.

I have learned a valuable lesson in my nearly 70 years of existence. That is, I no longer will take on the consequences of another person's actions.

And sometimes, unfortunately, the only remedy is to avoid them.

However, there is a big difference between forgiveness and distance.

It is quite possible, and even beneficial, to forgive those we believe have wronged us. Or owe us something.

Even if you no longer associate with them any longer.
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Old 04-29-2023, 03:38 PM
 
412 posts, read 134,235 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakback View Post
As many have experienced, I too, am familiar with " toxic " relatives.

I have learned a valuable lesson in my nearly 70 years of existence. That is, I no longer will take on the consequences of another person's actions.

And sometimes, unfortunately, the only remedy is to avoid them.

However, there is a big difference between forgiveness and distance.

It is quite possible, and even beneficial, to forgive those we believe have wronged us. Or owe us something.

Even if you no longer associate with them any longer.
As evidenced by the posts in this revived thread, some people will not be ignored.

I agree with you it is beneficial to forgive, but sometimes it's best not to forget for your own safety or well-being.
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Old 04-29-2023, 03:47 PM
 
Location: Adirondack Mountains, Upstate NY
551 posts, read 179,920 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakback View Post
However, there is a big difference between forgiveness and distance.

It is quite possible, and even beneficial, to forgive those we believe have wronged us. Or owe us something.

Even if you no longer associate with them any longer.
Yup. When we forgive - truly forgive - the negative emotional suffering associated with the thing being forgiven melts away. Of course it has to be heart-felt, not just mouthing the words or thinking the thoughts without really meaning them.

I have a friend in dire straights. Everything that can go wrong has gone wrong. He has anger bubbling up from years and even decades past. Many of the objects of his anger are long gone from his life so he's not punishing them with his anger. Instead he's punishing himself.

Classic Buddha Second Arrow (and 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc...) parable. Depressive rumination.
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Old 04-29-2023, 07:16 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,493 posts, read 7,287,682 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayle White View Post
As evidenced by the posts in this revived thread, some people will not be ignored.

I agree with you it is beneficial to forgive, but sometimes it's best not to forget for your own safety or well-being.
I agree.

Prudence is also a virtue
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