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Old 01-26-2010, 02:25 PM
 
1,736 posts, read 2,107,030 times
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Is this why God created sin and evil?

New Jerusalem
2 Peter 3.9
The Lord is not being slow in carrying out his promises, as some people think he is; rather is he being patient with you, wanting nobody to be lost and everybody to be brought to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9 KJ
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
God wanting no one to be lost makes sense to me. After all, He loves us.
If God's will is supreme, and it is, then if He is not wanting any of us to be lost, you can bet your hat that none are lost.
I must conclude then that none are lost as God's will cannot be thwarted.
If none are lost, thanks to God not wanting to lose any of us, then that would eliminate the need for an everlasting hell.
An everlasting hell would be an immoral place by any measure anyway so this view of God not creating a hell seems right.
If we are all to repent then obviously we must all sin or do evil in some form or other.
God facilitates sin by giving us a sinning nature. We cannot fight our God given natures so sin comes rather easily to us. We all sin by nature. If God wanted sinless people then obviously He would create sinless natures. He does not.
It seems natural to me that God, who began, so to speak, as master of all the universe, would not create a hell where He is not master. That would be back sliding and is of course impossible for God. In the beginning God's continence was without blemish. To think that He would allow Himself to end, so to speak, with a black blemish on His white continence would be rather droll.
Is this why God gave us the gifts of sin and evil?
Is this what makes sin and evil part of God's perfect works?
Is this why in the garden of Eden, God said that things were good, even though Satan or the talking snake were there.
Was Satan, always under God's control, acting as a loyal opposition to make sure that Eve ate of the tree of knowledge that gives us our moral sense?
I admit that my view that a hell would be immoral leads me to read the above quote rather literally while knowing that the Vatican and Pope tell us not to take scripture literally even as I know that many do.
God only creates good and perfect works.
Does that make sin and evil good, within the larger picture of perfection?
I think that from His POV it must be so and by trying to look at things from that view, I can glimpse a view of the perfection that we live in even as I can see sin and evil with us.
Rather strange then that we should be thanking God for evil and sin.
Stranger still to think that God wants us to sin to insure that we do His will by repenting for them.

Thoughts.

Regards
DL
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Old 01-27-2010, 06:24 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,088 posts, read 20,764,691 times
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Actally a good post but rather just stirring the turgid depths of the problem of evil debate.

I would normally leave this be, but the Plantinga thread is still in my mind because it seems that the recent apologetics for God allowing evil seem to have come from Plantinga or he is finding good explantions for why God allows evil.

Here the idea is that without us sinning or doing evil, we wouldn't be able to repent it.

However, why is it neccessary to repent? If God wanted us to get into heaven, he could just do it. I do not buy Plantinga's argument that God is incapable of creating a universe that does not contain evil.

Nor do I buy the suggestion that man created the evil by disobeying God. Not if we give the Bible account any credence. It is clearly a set - up job to ensure that man fell. If it is explained (or explained away) as a metaphor of man and evil, that's ok, so far as it goes, and I'll return to that.

So we come back to the argument that it was all done as part of God's plan. Man was created with the capacity for evil and that was to make a being with the ability to choose to obey or not (or love God or not, which comes to the same thing) and God, though of course, he could just wave a magic wand and make us all sinless, chooses to do it this way.

It makes me feel slightly sickened but then, if that's what's happening, what can we do about it other than play by His rules? Well -that would depend upon what supposedly happens if we don't shape up.

Some say we are tormented for ever. Others say we are just excluded from God's presence.

Clearly there is no concensus and it looks to me like none of them actually know what they are talking about. Whether they claim to get it from scripture or direct from God, none of them really know what the heck they are talking about. From the top Churchbods down to the ordinary theist forum - poster, none of them know what the heck they are talking about.

So to return to the metaphor of man and evil, I'd say, none of them know what the heck they are talking about. There is no reason to suppose that evil is a thing. It is a human convention, based on purely human perceptions of good and bad. Based of course on evolved instincts which also urge us to spread our gene pool by fighting other males and taking their women. Give a bit of thought from everything from Crusades to gangfights, harems to sex - tourism. It all fits, just as gospel -fiddling fits what we actually have in our Bible.

Evil is what we think it is and morality is a human construct. There is no good evidence for god -input and rummaging through the generally agreed spurious 2 Peter for clues as to what it's all about strikes me as the most futile of futile excercises.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 01-27-2010 at 06:43 AM..
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Old 01-27-2010, 07:53 AM
 
1,736 posts, read 2,107,030 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Actally a good post but rather just stirring the turgid depths of the problem of evil debate.

I would normally leave this be, but the Plantinga thread is still in my mind because it seems that the recent apologetics for God allowing evil seem to have come from Plantinga or he is finding good explantions for why God allows evil.

Here the idea is that without us sinning or doing evil, we wouldn't be able to repent it.

However, why is it neccessary to repent? If God wanted us to get into heaven, he could just do it. I do not buy Plantinga's argument that God is incapable of creating a universe that does not contain evil.

Nor do I buy the suggestion that man created the evil by disobeying God. Not if we give the Bible account any credence. It is clearly a set - up job to ensure that man fell. If it is explained (or explained away) as a metaphor of man and evil, that's ok, so far as it goes, and I'll return to that.

So we come back to the argument that it was all done as part of God's plan. Man was created with the capacity for evil and that was to make a being with the ability to choose to obey or not (or love God or not, which comes to the same thing) and God, though of course, he could just wave a magic wand and make us all sinless, chooses to do it this way.

It makes me feel slightly sickened but then, if that's what's happening, what can we do about it other than play by His rules? Well -that would depend upon what supposedly happens if we don't shape up.

Some say we are tormented for ever. Others say we are just excluded from God's presence.

Clearly there is no concensus and it looks to me like none of them actually know what they are talking about. Whether they claim to get it from scripture or direct from God, none of them really know what the heck they are talking about. From the top Churchbods down to the ordinary theist forum - poster, none of them know what the heck they are talking about.

So to return to the metaphor of man and evil, I'd say, none of them know what the heck they are talking about. There is no reason to suppose that evil is a thing. It is a human convention, based on purely human perceptions of good and bad. Based of course on evolved instincts which also urge us to spread our gene pool by fighting other males and taking their women. Give a bit of thought from everything from Crusades to gangfights, harems to sex - tourism. It all fits, just as gospel -fiddling fits what we actually have in our Bible.

Evil is what we think it is and morality is a human construct. There is no good evidence for god -input and rummaging through the generally agreed spurious 2 Peter for clues as to what it's all about strikes me as the most futile of futile excercises.
I agree. This is why I indicated that man has dominion here and we can ignore God and develop our own rules and in this way, reduce sin.

As you say, morality is a human construct.

It is all up to us as God is now redundant and irrelevant. He supposedly started up a perfect system and then took off for parts unknown.

Regards
DL
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Old 01-27-2010, 09:00 AM
 
Location: Indianapolis
4,323 posts, read 6,028,298 times
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God can't create evil as God did not know about evil until it was created by man. Now God gets to experience it becasue it exists here. It was never part of God to begin with however, God did give us free will. Free will to either live in God's kingdom or live outside of it. Anything that is not pure or Divine cannot inhabit that heaven. So now we have to rid ourselves of the encrustments that we have put on our souls and purify them so that they are fit to inhabit the Kingdom of God.

I llike to use the analogy of a windshield. Our souls are the windshiled and upon it's creation by God, it was pure and without blemish. Once we inhabit a human form, we have encrustments, or bugs, that are taught to us by our parents, friends or acquantences. As we go through life, we keep acquiring more and more unless we do something to get rid of them. Believing in something doesn't wash them off but doing something will. Doing the thing that God has only asked us to do. Once we do this thing, we get rid of the bugs, slowly and surely, and, at the same time, we are putting an invisible "coating" over the windshield, or soul, so that no more bugs can accumulate (inclination to sin). Once the bugs are off of the soul and the "coating" is protecting the soul, or the windshield, it can become as it was upon creation, perfect as God is perfect. Our souls have always remained perfect. It's the incrustments that are imperfect and are not allowed into the Kingdom of God.

So, the question remains, do we believe those bugs away or do we do something to make the bugs go away.

No one is inherently evil and evil can be rid of the way that Jesus explained. In no other way can one get rid of evil and become Divine.
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Old 01-27-2010, 10:03 AM
 
1,736 posts, read 2,107,030 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend1111 View Post
God can't create evil as God did not know about evil until it was created by man. Now God gets to experience it becasue it exists here. It was never part of God to begin with however, God did give us free will. Free will to either live in God's kingdom or live outside of it. Anything that is not pure or Divine cannot inhabit that heaven. So now we have to rid ourselves of the encrustments that we have put on our souls and purify them so that they are fit to inhabit the Kingdom of God.

I llike to use the analogy of a windshield. Our souls are the windshiled and upon it's creation by God, it was pure and without blemish. Once we inhabit a human form, we have encrustments, or bugs, that are taught to us by our parents, friends or acquantences. As we go through life, we keep acquiring more and more unless we do something to get rid of them. Believing in something doesn't wash them off but doing something will. Doing the thing that God has only asked us to do. Once we do this thing, we get rid of the bugs, slowly and surely, and, at the same time, we are putting an invisible "coating" over the windshield, or soul, so that no more bugs can accumulate (inclination to sin). Once the bugs are off of the soul and the "coating" is protecting the soul, or the windshield, it can become as it was upon creation, perfect as God is perfect. Our souls have always remained perfect. It's the incrustments that are imperfect and are not allowed into the Kingdom of God.

So, the question remains, do we believe those bugs away or do we do something to make the bugs go away.

No one is inherently evil and evil can be rid of the way that Jesus explained. In no other way can one get rid of evil and become Divine.
God created evil.
Check your Bible goof.

As to the only way of becoming divine by riding a scapegoat.

You might want to remember that we are to help carry the cross not ride it. That would be immoral. ther is no justice in the murder of an innocent man. Stop trying to capitalize on a murder.

Step up to your own responsibilities and stop trying to put them on the death of an innocent man.

Regards
DL
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Old 01-27-2010, 10:14 AM
 
Location: Toronto, ON
2,332 posts, read 2,841,643 times
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Question But evil for the simplicity of free will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatest I am View Post
God created evil.
Check your Bible goof.

As to the only way of becoming divine by riding a scapegoat.

You might want to remember that we are to help carry the cross not ride it. That would be immoral. ther is no justice in the murder of an innocent man. Stop trying to capitalize on a murder.

Step up to your own responsibilities and stop trying to put them on the death of an innocent man.

Regards
DL
Evil makes me unavailable to what's going ON. Therefore, it's not a big deal if I focus. God created evil as ultimately the presence of the unfulfilled state for How anyone thinking has to overcome the fact of being in the World. Maybe I am not as free as I feel I was.
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Old 01-27-2010, 10:26 AM
 
Location: PA
2,595 posts, read 4,442,221 times
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God created all in the begining.
God created good and by doing this He formed evil
God wants a creation that loves him, so we must have freewill for without it our love would not be love.
God wants no one to perish, however many of us reject him and what his Son did on the cross in order for us to be reunited with him. And by rejecting him we sentance ourselves to hell.
God created hell for Satan and his angels
God is the lord of Hell, in that God chooses who will end up there based on his judgement. Satan has no choice. Hell has to accept whatever God puts in it.
Humans who reject God will end up in hell and experience ET. There is nowhere else for them to go. And once we die or Jesus returns, we will be like the angels. That means we will have decided our fate for eternity. Just like from the beginning Satan decided his eternal fate.
Satan who hates God, wants to destroy anything that belongs to God. Humans who were created in the image of God will be tormented by Satan for eternity because of his hatred for God.
Many will be saved, but many will end up in hell.
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Old 01-27-2010, 10:49 AM
 
Location: Indianapolis
4,323 posts, read 6,028,298 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatest I am View Post
God created evil.
Check your Bible goof.

As to the only way of becoming divine by riding a scapegoat.

You might want to remember that we are to help carry the cross not ride it. That would be immoral. ther is no justice in the murder of an innocent man. Stop trying to capitalize on a murder.

Step up to your own responsibilities and stop trying to put them on the death of an innocent man.

Regards
DL
Huh?! I have no idea what you just said. I can't check the bible as I don't read it and I always take responsability for every action I make. Not sure what you're getting at here so can you elaborate a little more?

God did not create evil. If He did, He would not be God. Love does not create evil. Period. God is Love in it's purest form.
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Old 01-27-2010, 11:03 AM
 
Location: Toronto, ON
2,332 posts, read 2,841,643 times
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Lightbulb Rolleyes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikk View Post
God created all in the beginning.
God wants no one to perish, however many of us reject him and what his Son did on the cross in order for us to be reunited with him. And by rejecting him we sentance ourselves to hell.

......
Hell has to accept whatever God puts in it.
Humans who reject God will end up in hell and experience ET. There is nowhere else for them to go.

So God created Hell. I was thinking earlier that that was convention by our faith as Christians for the value of concerning ourselves with the idea of judgment. What of goodness that indeed lots of people can balance their loves in dealing about into God's creation of self-knowledge and the understanding of determined pre-destination? Thanks anyway.

Last edited by tgnostic; 01-27-2010 at 11:04 AM.. Reason: punctuation
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Old 01-27-2010, 12:01 PM
 
1,168 posts, read 1,236,875 times
Reputation: 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatest I am View Post
Is this why God created sin and evil?

New Jerusalem
2 Peter 3.9
The Lord is not being slow in carrying out his promises, as some people think he is; rather is he being patient with you, wanting nobody to be lost and everybody to be brought to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9 KJ
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
God wanting no one to be lost makes sense to me. After all, He loves us.
If God's will is supreme, and it is, then if He is not wanting any of us to be lost, you can bet your hat that none are lost.
I must conclude then that none are lost as God's will cannot be thwarted.
If none are lost, thanks to God not wanting to lose any of us, then that would eliminate the need for an everlasting hell.
An everlasting hell would be an immoral place by any measure anyway so this view of God not creating a hell seems right.
If we are all to repent then obviously we must all sin or do evil in some form or other.
God facilitates sin by giving us a sinning nature. We cannot fight our God given natures so sin comes rather easily to us. We all sin by nature. If God wanted sinless people then obviously He would create sinless natures. He does not.
It seems natural to me that God, who began, so to speak, as master of all the universe, would not create a hell where He is not master. That would be back sliding and is of course impossible for God. In the beginning God's continence was without blemish. To think that He would allow Himself to end, so to speak, with a black blemish on His white continence would be rather droll.
Is this why God gave us the gifts of sin and evil?
Is this what makes sin and evil part of God's perfect works?
Is this why in the garden of Eden, God said that things were good, even though Satan or the talking snake were there.
Was Satan, always under God's control, acting as a loyal opposition to make sure that Eve ate of the tree of knowledge that gives us our moral sense?
I admit that my view that a hell would be immoral leads me to read the above quote rather literally while knowing that the Vatican and Pope tell us not to take scripture literally even as I know that many do.
God only creates good and perfect works.
Does that make sin and evil good, within the larger picture of perfection?
I think that from His POV it must be so and by trying to look at things from that view, I can glimpse a view of the perfection that we live in even as I can see sin and evil with us.
Rather strange then that we should be thanking God for evil and sin.
Stranger still to think that God wants us to sin to insure that we do His will by repenting for them.

Thoughts.

Regards
DL



I have pondered these things for a long time..and over many conceptual Ideals being brought forward to my minds eye, I have come up with a reasonable explaination for the event of the creation and the event of breaking God's Instruction.

1. It was not the snake, serpent, or beast, that spoke to Eve, and twisted her mind to touch and eat of the tree told not to.
It was Adam, who hid behind a bush, and spoke as the snake, serpent, beast...because he wanted to be like God...
In that he got Eve to sin first...to see if she would die.
Because she did not die right away, Adam thought it was safe to eat also, when she offered him the fruit or seed, or food.
So here we now have a conundrum.

2. God wanted to diesect and breed/weed out the disobediance/lies, from the DNA and see or find the Evil one or spirit that caused Eve and Adam to sin or be disobediant.
Because Adam lies here saying "She gave me the fruit, and I ate of it" because she ate, and I love her...is implied.
God believed him to some point, and God believed Eve when she said the serpent told her..as she really thought the serpent was talking...and God saw truth in her words, her heart, and in her mind...
but they both broke his instruction/law...and God has to keep his word about the death that certainly did follow...and their banishment from EDEN..
Sent to a opposite world...and different place...a place made by their disobediance...and alternate/ anti EDEN or opposite..."it is because of You it is like this" God said...
And in that world God sent them with instructions, till , sow, and grow...and they decayed and died in that...before death they had children..and they had children, died aswell...and it went on so for some time before the sin/disobediance was taken up again with God, and he came onto them and took some out of death...

2. So we see God is taking some out of Death, and putting them somewhere else.
According to the rising up of age instead of decaying in age.
Or having that capacity in them..in their dna...to do good, and repent, and restore...or make in likeness...Edens...which is the multiple of Eden...the expansion of the kingdom...

3. God has allotted time to Adam and Eve, and their children to be witness to the ordeal in some odd light, and bent time line...that the serpent/snake still has no voice of any coherent trademark.
And God said it would slide on its belly for it's life time here as punishment...Yet we are now seeing that some snakes are being born with apendages.
Some are born with two heads, and the doubling of other animals is also showing sign...and they die aswell....why? are they sinning too? or is it because in some bent way they are being subjected under the idol as a bent value of their being?

So is it true about the snake? or serpent? speaking to Eve?

I believe there might be a simple solution to this.

ADAM spoke as the serpent....is a possiblilty!

And It is confirmed by Jesus...as the supposed serpent comes to Jesus as a Human...and shows him all the wonders of the world , and offers them to Christ...if he would only worship him.

See Adam wants to be Like God!
Same spirit (Adam)...different time lines...same planet called death we are born into....under a idol, and many bent rulers...But soon one will come asking that we worship him instead of God...
That would be the spirit of Adam.
Adam believes he is the first begotten of God, and he believes he is a God, because he ate of the tree of knowldge....Which is not true!

But Jesus proves him wrong!
Jesus rises up from death..back to life with God in Eden....where the liar and sinner cannot Go.
For it has been established sin begets death...and so this place is made for sin...and death is the result of sin.
But if one becomes sinless, and does all that God has asked of us, and we restore certain things in that sinless estate...God promises us eternal life in Eden....and he plans to raise us up out of death, once we see the truth, and do his will, and fulfill his words, and the punishment (even though we did not do the original sin, We show signs of understanding when we put it back sinlessly , which should reverse the curse of Death)...the hole truth, and nothing but the truth...

Sin by Nature?...We sin because we are placed in a place where sin can abound and it is incurraged under the Idol God said not to make or use, or have...
The very nature of this world humans are creating with the Idol brings sin and evil up to the forefront, As Jesus said it would!
"Your making a den of robbers and thieves!" as he kicks the money changers out of his fathers house.
And He is asked point blank by the Pharecies about the coin and the tax...and Jesus would not look upon the coin, he asked them to show him..and then says ..."who's title is on it?" because he would not look and see for himself.....and said Give it back to Caesar....But give onto God your obediance of the Commandments...Do not make any ingraven imaged thing, worshipped for life...Which is now getting way too important in the world...that they have forgotten the garden principle, and the proper caring for all life, and have turned to proffiteering, and corruption, fraud, and other selfish Evils, whilst polluting , defiling,and destroying the very essence of Life!...making abomonations as they defile that natural estate, and subject everything under the false value system...and polluting the elements..and the dna..of all life!

So Now we know that a evil spirit or spirits are now cast down to this world, and are possesing people to do certain things that God said not to do!
And most of the human race is buying into that estate...under the Idol...so sin and evil can abound constantly, while the planet's bounty is depleted!...God promises more...and the opposite promises less!

They are now asking for human sacrifices in wars with no merits or truths and have all the taxed payers support in these HUMAN Sacrifices....and look they go to slaughter the innocent, and be slaughtered for nothing important but the act of killing and...breaking one of God's commandments...and if we really look deep into the world...every commandment is being broken at some level....Murder brings the curse of Cain over the lands.....

So is my Idea right?

For Satan is not mentioned in my Bible as being created by God being disobediant...the first Adam was obediant....Satan created himself out of a twisted state of mind...Confusion...(disobediant to God) after the splitting of Adam to make Adam and Eve.

So the first begotten Son of God was the or Word of God, Jesus!...Which is the truth.

The second Adam is Flawed in his thinking, and he feels he rules this world...but his rule is coming to an end...because the truth has come!
And because the truth has come...He wants to make everyone a sinner with him...Thus he makes wars, and asks for Sacrifices...and he will claim he is God, but donounce Jesus...

And some will follow him and his lying wonders...until...

God is offering a hand, and forgiveness to all...even Adam and Eve are being offered a state of forgiveness if they repent, and stop being Evil.

But they do not want to loose their bent kingdoms..or their power over the people in sin and great evils!

So the beat goes on...

The Gifts are mentioned in the Genesis..no mention of Evil or Sin is there.

God did not intend there to be Sin or Evil....As you can see by reading all he created was good.

Now where is this sin you speak of being God's creation?

Did he create the capacity for sin?...Well Yes and no...If the father tells you to not touch, Then, or X will come to be,...and you touch, or do what you have been told not to,THEN,...it is not God that made the choice to touch, Although it is a choice, it was not ment as one..it was ment to warn, and to keep away from the choice, for it has a effect...and God has no control over that choice, but he does have control over the X...and X is created by the cause of doing something wrong.

That being God is paramount and God is Good.
Now if we do what God says, then we are of God.
but if we do what God has said not to do...then we are of our own.
And on our own we will suffer doing the wrong things continually!
Death will be a constant, nothing will be sound or safe, and sin and evil will abound in that Error!..Chaos will rule!

So to do the will and fulfill the word...is still on the plate...and we have word what God wants us to do, is make Edens, till , and sow all plants...and repent, and do Good onto our brothers and sisters (Adam and Eves) and our neighbours (All life) and maybe we can change them back to doing Good for God...?

ANd in EDEN, God walked With ADAM...kind of a hint as to what can be with all who do the will and fulfill the words of God.

Sow some seeds for free!,...and let it be for God and the greator GOOD!..And the Kingdom... EDENS are the multiple of EDEN.

"Tend and keep the Garden"....has been forgotten in some peoples minds, But I feel it is what God made us for...and it is a eternal estate if we do it right....no money/idols required!

Sinless...Like Jesus.

Be Good
Be well
God bless
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