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Nothing is certain? Now that is just plain silly...Something cannot come from nothing....I'm certain.....
I am male....I'm certain...I have feet....I'm certain....You are using a keyboard....I'm certain....Need more? There are thousands of things I'm certain of, and none require faith.
Certainty..... Something that is clearly established or assured:
Faith....Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.
Faith..... Christianity, The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
Over 40 years ago as a freshman in high school I was having a similar debate with one of my teachers...and I posed that very same argument...that I was "sure" about plenty of things...and made what I thought would be a "lock down" statement to him--"I'm certain I'm standing here talking to you right now".
He shot me down by first asking me if I had dreams when I slept. Of course I replied, "Yes". Then he asked me if they ever seem very real... even enough to cause me fear, pleasure, or amusement. I said "yes" again. He then said, "prove to me we are experiencing an actual reality and we aren't just the figment of the imagination of an other-worldly entity that is thinking or dreaming in a way that is much more advanced than the way we think or dream, and furthermore, what we are experiencing isn't even occurring except in the imagination of that advanced entity. He went on to say, "who knows what is *real* in the universe?"...and that the potentiality of his, "manifestation of the imagination of some advanced entity", was an easier proposition than the mass of a star disappearing by getting slurped into a "black hole". Of course I came to realize that was a common "Think about this, what if...", but I was just a 12 year old kid at the time, and was so impressed with his *visionary thinking*. HaHa! Anyway, I never thought about the reality, or certainty, of anything the same way ever again...and from that point on realized, anything is possible, nothing is impossible, and nothing is absolute.
To me, Faith is a intuitive belief. Faith is like "Ultra-trust"...a belief that is sure. As I previously stated I don't see faith as having anything to do with "the facts" other than that you need faith in your "factual conclusions"...MOF, you have to have faith in your "facts" to state them as such.
Though faith is commonly linked to religion it is not at all exclusive to it...and you can be "faithful" to anything or anybody, not just a Deity.
You can even go so far as having "faith in your faith"...a deep belief that your trust is well placed. Like the kind of faith I have that the check I'm going to write and send in on the 15th will be spent wisely and with prudence. LOL!
Faith is the trust you have that you've come to an accurate conclusion...regardless of how you came to that conclusion. It has nothing to do with, lying to yourself, denying reality, ignoring the supportable, refusing to recognize logic, or any other "poke in the ribs" statement (let's seeee, yup, you got all the major ones in there...good job!) you want to put up. But has everything to do with the certain belief that you have the right answer.
But the contradiction there is that if something is "certain" or "true" then there is no need for "faith". That is what I and others have been trying to get you to understand...faith is obsolete when it comes to truth, it just isn't required. Do you require "faith" to believe that if you cut someone's head off, they will die?
Well, Muslims believe Allah used his magic fingers made everything, Christians believe God used his magic fingers made everything, Buddhists believe Buddha used his woody made everything ...
As I understand it, Buddhists believe everything is a cycle, so there was never nothing.
As you say, Graham222, Energy cannot be created or destroyed, only transferred. Energy also sustains life...it makes up EVERYTHING and without it, nothing would survive. Both are qualities that characterise God.
So, maybe, ENERGY is what we call GOD with a few human characteristics thrown in...
Therefore, there was never nothing.
Over 40 years ago as a freshman in high school I was having a similar debate with one of my teachers...and I posed that very same argument...that I was "sure" about plenty of things...and made what I thought would be a "lock down" statement to him--"I'm certain I'm standing here talking to you right now".
He shot me down by first asking me if I had dreams when I slept. Of course I replied, "Yes". Then he asked me if they ever seem very real... even enough to cause me fear, pleasure, or amusement. I said "yes" again. He then said, "prove to me we are experiencing an actual reality and we aren't just the figment of the imagination of an other-worldly entity that is thinking or dreaming in a way that is much more advanced than the way we think or dream, and furthermore, what we are experiencing isn't even occurring except in the imagination of that advanced entity. He went on to say, "who knows what is *real* in the universe?"...and that the potentiality of his, "manifestation of the imagination of some advanced entity", was an easier proposition than the mass of a star disappearing by getting slurped into a "black hole". Of course I came to realize that was a common "Think about this, what if...", but I was just a 12 year old kid at the time, and was so impressed with his *visionary thinking*. HaHa! Anyway, I never thought about the reality, or certainty, of anything the same way ever again...and from that point on realized, anything is possible, nothing is impossible, and nothing is absolute.
To me, Faith is a intuitive belief. Faith is like "Ultra-trust"...a belief that is sure. As I previously stated I don't see faith as having anything to do with "the facts" other than that you need faith in your "factual conclusions"...MOF, you have to have faith in your "facts" to state them as such.
Though faith is commonly linked to religion it is not at all exclusive to it...and you can be "faithful" to anything or anybody, not just a Deity.
You can even go so far as having "faith in your faith"...a deep belief that your trust is well placed. Like the kind of faith I have that the check I'm going to write and send in on the 15th will be spent wisely and with prudence. LOL!
Yeah, I was a smart little kid so I got there early. It sucked a little being the youngest, except for a few others like me...especially in sports, where your physicality advances a lot in a year at that stage of life. But worst of all---most all the other kids in my class got their DRIVERS LICENSE the year before I did! OH NOOOOO!
I must have been confused by all of the JESUS IS RISEN!!! GLORY BE!!! posts over Easter.
I question why you feel the need to hide your religious beliefs in order to try to make a point. It seems to me if you knew there was strength to them you wouldn't hide them, but maybe I'm missing something.
This site has some excellent writers on it. Actually, splendid philosophers that really have something of substance to say. I just read Jremy, post #575, on the "Atheism made easy" thread...another guy that needs to find a publisher.
Two thumbs up to his premise that the FAITH theists have in their "higher power" in no way puts them in a diminished position to the atheists. The way I see it is at least the theists have SOMETHING to point to as the support for our belief system...while the atheists base their FAITH in their fallible "data" on what?
The same thing you put your faith in when you think your car will magically be in the exact same spot you last parked it.
Theists, on the other hand, have to worry that their god might have moved the car as a miracle to prove his power. What, believers don't seriously consider this? Then you understand how atheists live life as well.
Nothing is certain? Now that is just plain silly...Something cannot come from nothing....I'm certain.....
I am male....I'm certain...I have feet....I'm certain....You are using a keyboard....I'm certain....Need more? There are thousands of things I'm certain of, and none require faith.
Nope, you could be a brain in a vat being fed bad information so anything you think you know has a slim possibility of maybe not being correct, in theory. And because that is remotely possible, it's therefore a 50/50 chance that the Christian god exists despite any evidence. Make sense to you? Me neither, but that seems to be the argument here.
I question why you feel the need to hide your religious beliefs in order to try to make a point. It seems to me if you knew there was strength to them you wouldn't hide them, but maybe I'm missing something.
It's always a hoot when they claim they are not "religious". Every one of them align themselves with the dogma of Catholicism...but they're not "religious". Yeah right!!
Last edited by Rafius; 04-05-2010 at 08:43 AM..
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Am I really real?
