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Given that requirement it wouldn't be hard at all to have an orderly universe. MOF given that requirement you'd get a "chance organized" universe real quick, for sure, no problem. I like that A LOT Rafius. I want THAT one! Best I've ever heard. Best of all, it's as logical as any (actually, more logical than most) and of course as possible as any. I make a motion to appoint you as the one who sets the "universe arrangement criteria"...then I won't have to worry about that there might be a "judgment day".
Something in my "heart" (which of course isn't logical but seems to have more power to "move" me) tells me it's more like, the way to get the orderly universe with the dice....there is only one sequence of 100 numbers 1 thru 6 that give you an orderly universe and you then throw each dice one at a time. Sort of like a lotto play with 100 lines of 1 thru 6 on the card. Then, on top of that, you would need to catch that "lucky number" at whatever odds that was, for each and every different aspect of order (galaxies and solar systems, energy, life, etc.) there is in the universe.
Here's where not having the answer gets to me--Since the answer could be anything...what if it's that ever popular creator concept that has the "judgmental creator" taking names and kicking butt? If that's the case, I know what's gonna happen to me and it won't be pretty. Though my misery will be sure to have a lot of company!
All the best to all.
I see the universe as too "orderly" to be matter that always was and organized itself so well simply by chance.
Except the universe isn't all that orderly, and chance plays an incredible role in the order of everything. Life on this planet is and has been all about chance, the chance that the Earth would be just far enough away from the sun, that the earth would have large enough gravity to have an atmosphere, that dinosaur's would be wiped out by the chance that an asteroid would impact the planet which allowed to rise of mammals, all just a matter of chance.
Given that requirement it wouldn't be hard at all to have an orderly universe. MOF given that requirement you'd get a "chance organized" universe real quick, for sure, no problem. I like that A LOT Rafius. I want THAT one! Best I've ever heard. Best of all, it's as logical as any (actually, more logical than most) and of course as possible as any. I make a motion to appoint you as the one who sets the "universe arrangement criteria"...then I won't have to worry about that there might be a "judgment day".
Something in my "heart" (which of course isn't logical but seems to have more power to "move" me) tells me it's more like, the way to get the orderly universe with the dice....there is only one sequence of 100 numbers 1 thru 6 that give you an orderly universe and you then throw each dice one at a time. Sort of like a lotto play with 100 lines of 1 thru 6 on the card. Then, on top of that, you would need to catch that "lucky number" at whatever odds that was, for each and every different aspect of order (galaxies and solar systems, energy, life, etc.) there is in the universe.
Here's where not having the answer gets to me--Since the answer could be anything...what if it's that ever popular creator concept that has the "judgmental creator" taking names and kicking butt? If that's the case, I know what's gonna happen to me and it won't be pretty. Though my misery will be sure to have a lot of company!
All the best to all.
Are you under the assumption life is only possible with this exact set of dice rolls? Life evolved into this set of "rules," but it doesn't make it the only possible set of "rules" that could support life. Carbon-based lifeforms such as ourselves don't really require gravity to function. We could live with more or less.
Of course I don't make that assumption.
90% of my last post was intended to add a little levity to the board...except for my hope that Rafius' proposal that the "chance order" of the universe could be based on odds that were as probable as his "100 six-sided dice rolled to come up with any combo achieving one total"...I was serious about that. I can tell most of you guys on this board are very logical, scientific, thinkers. I tend to bend a little bit toward the mystical-- Not because I can actually get any kind of a grip on it, but because it "fills the gaps" and adds some wonder and hope to an otherwise finite life.
All the best.
Of course I don't make that assumption.
90% of my last post was intended to add a little levity to the board...except for my hope that Rafius' proposal that the "chance order" of the universe could be based on odds that were as probable as his "100 six-sided dice rolled to come up with any combo achieving one total"...I was serious about that. I can tell most of you guys on this board are very logical, scientific, thinkers. I tend to bend a little bit toward the mystical-- Not because I can actually get any kind of a grip on it, but because it "fills the gaps" and adds some wonder and hope to an otherwise finite life.
All the best.
Also wilkes, since you're willingly posting in the R&P sub-forum, where we openly debate each others' opinions, I assume you don't mind if we ask you a few questions about your assumptions?
I'd ask you first-off, why it is that Christian believers can't ever answer the question that naturally and logically follows their oft-repeated question about "How can something come from nothing?" As in The Big Bang, or other hypothetical beginning scenarios (science has not yet completely settled on any one of them, but remains open-minded, as always).
But when asked how their God (and/or his ancestors) has apparently existed forever, they are either speechless, or they come roaring back with a deflective and insulting ad hominem, or they say "Just because He's God, and always was!".
So, they vacillate 180˚ between requiring from science a completely logical answer, and their own illogical, supernatural, mystical "It just is!" answer. Frankly, I didn't understand this perspective for many years, but now I do.
But I'm also always curious to respectfully hear and discuss the Christian perspective. Of course, I'm also looking for a more reasoned answer than that as well. Perhaps you can bring us that one?
"Christians can't ever"? My, what wonderful, sweeping claims you make. You're a smart guy. Why not build bridges instead of setting fires?
The truth is that this goes back at least to Aristotle. And I don't see any problem with saying that God has always existed, or that God is metaphysically necessary. This is part of what many people mean by the term 'God'. If something cannot come from nothing, then something "always" has to have existed. Right?
A related question: WHY is there something rather than nothing? This is even more to the heart of the matter. The "world," or "nature," doesn't really provide any answer here--for it would seem that the world might not have existed. And if it is possible for the world to not have existed, then the world does not give an answer to the question WHY there is something rather than nothing. The committed atheist will want to say that the world is simply a brute fact--it exists, no explanation. So for the atheist, at the bottom of everything is a brute, inexplicable, unintelligible fact. The existence of the world ultimately makes no sense. But for the theist there is an answer to the question of why there is something rather than nothing: namely, there exists a necessary being, the ultimate explanation for reality, the final ground for all moral laws and physical laws and logical laws, the ultimate ground for human happiness. Etc. I personally find the theistic picture compelling and intellectually stimulating.
A related question: WHY is there something rather than nothing? This is even more to the heart of the matter. The "world," or "nature," doesn't really provide any answer here--for it would seem that the world might not have existed. And if it is possible for the world to not have existed, then the world does not give an answer to the question WHY there is something rather than nothing. The committed atheist will want to say that the world is simply a brute fact--it exists, no explanation. So for the atheist, at the bottom of everything is a brute, inexplicable, unintelligible fact. The existence of the world ultimately makes no sense. But for the theist there is an answer to the question of why there is something rather than nothing: namely, there exists a necessary being, the ultimate explanation for reality, the final ground for all moral laws and physical laws and logical laws, the ultimate ground for human happiness. Etc. I personally find the theistic picture compelling and intellectually stimulating.
Matrix- I enjoy your posts, you always give me something to think about even though I rarely agree with you.
Why does there need to be an answer to "why is there something rather than nothing"? We will never know why.
I can only speak for myself, but this atheist feels that the world does ultimately make sense. But, what makes sense in this world is different for each person. I don't worry about things that are ultimately unknowable, which seems like a very sensible decision to me.
To most theists, the world only makes sense if that "necessary being" exists. They don't know the truth any more than I do.
All of these different points of view and versions of personal reality are compelling and intellectually stimulating for me. The world is an endlessly fascinating place.
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I pick Rafius' way to order the universe.
