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Old 04-06-2010, 11:19 AM
 
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Does this kill the concept of original sin and the sacrifice of Jesus?

Does it also kill the idea that sin is passed down to the children and say that if Adam and Eve lost eternal life, that lose is not passed on to their children.

"The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself." (Ezekiel 18:20)
This quote seems to clearly say that we are all responsible for our sins and that none of that responsibility can be taken away and remains our own.
It also indicates that no sin, or original sin, is passed on to our children.
This seems a just way to go.
Why baptism then?

“and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."

This does not indicate that Jesus can take sin upon himself.
It does say that each of us must carry that load, not a scapegoat Jesus.
If so, then there is no sacrifice on the cross for Jesus and ---why have you forsaken me ----- is answered with, it is not your place or moral to take responsibilities away from those who must carry their own loads.
Does the above change your views of the vicarious redemption of Jesus or original sin?

Regards
DL
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Old 04-06-2010, 11:29 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatest I am View Post
Does this kill the concept of original sin and the sacrifice of Jesus?

Does it also kill the idea that sin is passed down to the children and say that if Adam and Eve lost eternal life, that lose is not passed on to their children.

"The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself." (Ezekiel 18:20)
This quote seems to clearly say that we are all responsible for our sins and that none of that responsibility can be taken away and remains our own.
It also indicates that no sin, or original sin, is passed on to our children.
That's true. The doctrine of original sin is pagan.

Quote:
Why baptism then?
Baptism is (was) to declare one's faith.

Quote:
“and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."

This does not indicate that Jesus can take sin upon himself.
Or that he can't. The wickedness of the wicked will be on himself unless God says so.

'We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.' Isa 53:6 NIV
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Old 04-06-2010, 02:50 PM
 
1,736 posts, read 2,105,571 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shibata View Post
That's true. The doctrine of original sin is pagan.


Baptism is (was) to declare one's faith.


Or that he can't. The wickedness of the wicked will be on himself unless God says so.

'We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.' Isa 53:6 NIV
Oh no. Are you planning on riding your scapegoat Jesus into heaven?

Do you plan to ride the cross/load or help carry it?

Regards
DL
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Old 04-07-2010, 06:54 AM
 
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also Jesus said"YOU reap what YOU sow"-not what someone else sowed so yes we are all responsible for our own actions----karma....
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Old 04-07-2010, 07:21 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,087 posts, read 20,700,397 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shibata View Post
That's true. The doctrine of original sin is pagan.


Baptism is (was) to declare one's faith.
No, I gather that baptism was a way of obtaining purification. It seems that Judaism thought it only cleansed the body whereas John thought it could purify spiritually. (Josephus). This is clearly the concept that Jesus' followers took along with them and how it got handed onto christianity through Paul replacing baptism with water with a baptism of faith. I'd suggest that removing his Gentiles from any Jewish ritualism was a plus, in his view.
That's how it got to be the declaration of faith that it now is.

Quote:
Or that he can't. The wickedness of the wicked will be on himself unless God says so.

'We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.' Isa 53:6 NIV
(underlining mine) God can change the rules whenever it suits him. Excuse me if I don't buy that excuse at all.
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Old 04-07-2010, 08:17 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
No, I gather that baptism was a way of obtaining purification. It seems that Judaism thought it only cleansed the body whereas John thought it could purify spiritually. (Josephus). This is clearly the concept that Jesus' followers took along with them and how it got handed onto christianity through Paul replacing baptism with water with a baptism of faith. I'd suggest that removing his Gentiles from any Jewish ritualism was a plus, in his view.
More concentrated garbage would be harder to imagine.
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Old 04-07-2010, 08:24 AM
 
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
God can change the rules whenever it suits him. Excuse me if I don't buy that excuse at all.
Failing to read the whole chapter is hardly excusable.
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Old 04-07-2010, 08:55 AM
 
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Originally Posted by dobeable View Post
also Jesus said"YOU reap what YOU sow"-not what someone else sowed so yes we are all responsible for our own actions----karma....
The right and just view.

Regards
DL
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Old 04-07-2010, 09:01 AM
 
Location: Free State of Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dobeable View Post
also Jesus said"YOU reap what YOU sow"-not what someone else sowed so yes we are all responsible for our own actions----karma....
Can you provide a Scripture reference?
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Old 04-07-2010, 09:31 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,087 posts, read 20,700,397 times
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Arq posted
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
No, I gather that baptism was a way of obtaining purification. It seems that Judaism thought it only cleansed the body whereas John thought it could purify spiritually. (Josephus). This is clearly the concept that Jesus' followers took along with them and how it got handed onto christianity through Paul replacing baptism with water with a baptism of faith. I'd suggest that removing his Gentiles from any Jewish ritualism was a plus, in his view.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shibata View Post
More concentrated garbage would be harder to imagine.
Indeed?

"DO JEWS BAPTIZE?

This question is asked frequently because John the Baptist baptized in the river Jordan, a "baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins" (Mark 1:4f) and Jesus' disciples baptized (John 4:1), and perhaps Jesus did too even before the "glorification" (John 7:39). The meaning of this type of baptism is clarified by the practices of traditional Judaism today. It is believed that women are unclean at certain periods. A woman becomes ritually clean through immersion – Mikvah - a form of baptism. Through contact with women who are ritually unclean or through the violation of other tabus, a man may also become polluted (Lev. 11-15; Nums. 19). As a means of cleansing or purification and sanctification, a ritual of total immersion is required for him as well. Special baths called ritualariums are constructed by Orthodox communities for this purpose."

http://www.philosophy-religion.org/world/jud_5.htm

(Though Christian sites play up repentance and spiritual cleansing, Judaism appears to regard bapism as principly ritual bodily cleanliness, also of ritual and domestic utensils. Arq)

"An account of John the Baptist is found in all extant manuscripts of the Jewish Antiquities (book 18, chapter 5, 2) by Flavius Josephus (37–100):[46]
Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army came from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John, that was called the Baptist: for Herod slew him, who was a good man, and commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, both as to righteousness towards one another, and piety towards God, and so to come to baptism; for that the washing [with water] would be acceptable to him, if they made use of it, not in order to the putting away [or the remission] of some sins [only], but for the purification of the body; supposing still that the soul was thoroughly purified beforehand by righteousness. Now when [many] others came in crowds about him, for they were very greatly moved [or pleased] by hearing his words, Herod, who feared lest the great influence John had over the people might put it into his power and inclination to raise a rebellion, (for they seemed ready to do any thing he should advise,) thought it best, by putting him to death, to prevent any mischief he might cause, and not bring himself into difficulties, by sparing a man who might make him repent of it when it would be too late. Accordingly he was sent a prisoner, out of Herod's suspicious temper, to Macherus, the castle I before mentioned, and was there put to death. Now the Jews had an opinion that the destruction of this army was sent as a punishment upon Herod, and a mark of God's displeasure to him.(Wiki)

(Josephus shows that John initiated the idea of baptism in water as a sign of repentance as well as ritual cleanliness Arq.)


"Baptism In The Teaching Of Paul
INTRODUCTION
1. In our first lesson we saw where baptism played a prominent role in
apostolic preaching...
a. In every case of conversion described in the book of Acts,
baptism is mentioned
b. As G. R. Beasley-Murray, a Baptist scholar, observed: "Baptism
is...a part of the proclamation of Christ. In an Apostolic sermon
it comes as its logical conclusion." - G. R. Beasley-Murray,
Baptism In The New Testament, Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans
Publishing Co., 1962, p. 393)
2. And what did the apostles proclaim regarding baptism? We noticed
that...
a. It was commanded "for the remission of sins" - Ac 2:38
b. It was done to "wash away sins" - Ac 22:16
c. It involved "water" - Ac 8:36-38; 10:48
d. It was done "immediately", with no delay even if after midnight
- Ac 16:25-33
3. This would certainly suggest that baptism is necessary for
salvation...
a. But is this a fair conclusion drawn from the "preaching" of the
apostles?
b. Is this conclusion consistent with the "teaching" of the
apostles, as found in their epistles?
[In this lesson, we will examine what Paul taught in his epistles
regarding baptism. Let's start with by noticing what he said about
baptism...]"

(This shows that the apostle according to Paul, had taken on the idea
of remission of sins and it was done with water. It is no coincidence that John was doing the same)

"I. IN HIS EPISTLE TO THE ROMANS
A. BAPTISM IS A BURIAL AND RESURRECTION WITH CHRIST...
1. It is a baptism into the death of Christ - Ro 6:3
2. It is a burial with Christ into death (His death, we are
crucified with Him!) - Ro 6:4
3. It is done in order that we might walk in newness of life
- Ro 6:4-5
4. It involves crucifying the old man, that the body of sin may
be destroyed - Ro 6:6
6. It thereby frees us from sin as we die to sin, that we might
live with Christ - Ro 6:7-11"

Baptism In The Teaching Of Paul

(Thus, Paul has turned it into a spiritual act of religious magic rather than a water purification even with a remission of sins aspect as with John and the apostles. Paul has reinvented baptism. Arq)

My case is made from evidence. If you are going to dismiss that as concentrated garbage you had better say why the examples cited to support my case are invalid.
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