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Religion has been telling followers: "All you need to do in your real life is being faithful, and you are all set.", why is that?
Here's what religion should be telling followers: "You need to be a responsible, moral person in real life, and save being faithful, being brainless ways to the afterlife."
Sort of the reverse of some of the questions that have been bouncing around here for weeks.
Historically speaking; armed with the absolute certainty of their god given morality with its implied transcendent and thus absolute superiority, far too many theist have been psychologically freed from any required sense of personal responsibility.
Religion has been telling followers: "All you need to do in your real life is being faithful, and you are all set.", why is that?
Here's what religion should be telling followers: "You need to be a responsible, moral person in real life, and save being faithful, being brainless ways to the afterlife."
Good thread and accurate observation of the way religion functions. This can be seen on a daily basis.
Those who have no religion have a conscience. For the religious, religion is a substitute for the conscience. Which is why religion has encouraged atrocities.
Those who live in a constant state of forgiveness can do whatever they want, and they often do.
Another inane anti-religion thread. (And no not all anti-religion threads here are inane. Some people make really intelligent or disturbing points on Bible contradictions or historicity)
Vic have you ever actually seen or talked to a religious person? Are you aware that the term "religion" isn't limited to some extremely small sect in Mississippi somewhere?
Many to most religions have a great deal to say about being moral in this life. Some religions, like Judaism, are pretty much only concerned with this life.
I think you should at least try to make a token effort to know what the heck you're talking about when you talk about it. There are some Christian or religious bloggers I'll recommend as that might be quicker than whole books. You could try the people at "First Things" or "Beliefnet." I'll get you the address for First Things.
Follow them for a bit and then come back when you have something interesting or smart to say. (And I'd be willing to start reading Free Inquiry or Skeptical Inquirer again if you wish. I'd kind of quit when I lost interest in non-theism, but Skeptical Inquirer was interesting sometimes)
Another inane anti-religion thread. (And no not all anti-religion threads here are inane. Some people make really intelligent or disturbing points on Bible contradictions or historicity)
I can't think of anything less inane, or central to many anti-religious sentiments, than the atrocities committed in the name of someone's god. The ability to wholesale shuck off the most basic tenets of human decency, to murder, mutilate, and torture another human being in the name of god is part and parcel the history of mankind for more than six centuries.
The last two or three centuries have seen far less violence in the "name of God" than in the name of nation, ethnicity, trade, imperialism, or non-religious ideology. The main horrors of the last three centuries I can think of to be religious in nature are
Tai-Ping Rebellion - Oddball Christian offshoot that no longer exists. (20-30 million)
Tsarist pogroms - Russian Orthodox violence against Jews and religious minorities. (Possibly a few million)
Sudanese Islamists - War in the South and then Darfur. (Two or three million I think)
Other Islamists - Probably less than Sudanese in total.
Marxist and ultra-nationalist violence, in total, dwarfs all those except the Tai'Ping. And really some oddball cult from a 150 years ago is hardly relevant to today's religious society. (Plus anti-Manchu nationalism had a great deal to do with why that rebellion was so large)
Lastly even in more religious ages wars were often about territory, trade, and the rights of succession in a monarchy. It might be nice if people had been fighting over religion, at least that would be about something meaningful, but to a large extent people seem to fight because they're selfish or violent or just want power. In the Medieval Europe sometimes they fought, in part, because they needed something for the younger sons to do as they did not inherit due to primogeniture. So the younger sons could either be priests or monks or they could go be soldiers fighting other people's younger sons. Some guys would rather kill than live a life of celibacy I suppose.
Good thread and accurate observation of the way religion functions. This can be seen on a daily basis.
Those who have no religion have a conscience. For the religious, religion is a substitute for the conscience. Which is why religion has encouraged atrocities.
Those who live in a constant state of forgiveness can do whatever they want, and they often do.
If someone wrongs you do you think they should ask for your forgiveness , or in secular terms apologize ?
We ask for forgiveness and try to live better ,but we are human and will do wrong .
I am not sure about once saved always saved though . I also don't think all Gods laws were done way with . But I'm still learning .
I must say that many religious people are moral. Or no worse than un-religious people. Those I have met who take religion seriously do seem to make an effort and it's understandable. Doing whatever you like and expecting that God will still let you in with your Christian Party card is trying it on a bit.
On the other hand, I've come across some Christians who didn't impress me in the least and I wondered whether such persons could possibly truly believe in it.
Then again, there are those who profess to be atheist, or are at least 'not interested'. Generally they are ok - they just want to get on with their lives, but there are an awful lot of yobs about and I have to wonder whether knife weilders and drive - by shootists wouldn't be better getting religion up the nose and joining a gospel choir, though I don't want them handing out tracts in my shopping mall.
So generally, I don't find too much difference in morality. But there is the question of convictions about what God wants. If God wants someone to selflessly run a much - needed hospital in Ruanda, then I can't object. But if it's getting the idea that God wants them to loudly campaign for ideas which I find irrational or repugnant, then I do object. Then I do want to tell them their their personal faith is no reason for them to think that they can loudly force their ideas on everyone else.
Religion has been telling followers: "All you need to do in your real life is being faithful, and you are all set.", why is that?
Here's what religion should be telling followers: "You need to be a responsible, moral person in real life, and save being faithful, being brainless ways to the afterlife."
This is why I try to avoid this board...SO MANY PEOPLE BASHING RELIGION WHO HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE HELL THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT!
The whole "faith not works" thing is what one religion, orthodox (lower case "O") Christianity teaches. In the Dharmic religions*, ones Karma is determined not by what one believes, but by what one does. In Islam, a person is accountable for his or her own salvation and one must be at least 51% good to enter paradise. In Wicca, the only commandment, of sorts, is the Rede, which is "Do as ye wilt, and it harm none..." by "Will", one must understand will-working as it exist in the western Magickal traditions which gave birth to Wicca as we know it today, and it makes more sense.
In Taoism, there is no absolute promise of an after life, and one is expected to follow the Three Treasures of Taoism, which are, essentially, none aggresion, life in simplicity, and none interference/not claiming authority. In Gnosticism, my religion, God, the after life and all of that is not to be believed in 100% and it is considered virtuos for a Gnostic to die doubting, BUT, a Gnostic is suppose to life a life of simplicity, contemplation of the divine (whatever it actually is) and in loving our neighbors, loving ourselves, and, most of all, HATING GOD WITH EVERY FIBER OF OUR BEING! MAY OUR CREATOR BURN IN HELL UNTIL THE END OF TIME! We feel that buy helping one another on Earth, we can grow closer to God that is beyond, that is, a God that may or may not exist...
and please, IF YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND HOW A GNOSTIC CAN HATE GOD YET LOVE AND GROW CLOSE TO GOD AND NOT HAVE FAITH THAT THERE IS A GOD OF ANY KIND AND THAT BE A PART OF THE RELIGION, DO NOT ACCUSE ME OF BEING AGNOSTIC OR WHAT EVER ELSE YOU MIGHT SAY. UNDERSTAND THAT IT IS JUST THAT YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THAT WHICH YOU HAVE NOT STUDIED OR READ ABOUT.
There in lies the problem with this board, and so many of the critics of religion as a whole: they pick a fight with religion, that being ALL RELIGIONS, and yet they have NO IDEA what the heck they are talking about.
Go to college and study comparative religion, read every scripture there is, read the books on the scholars of religion and it's ideas, and than try again.
*
(if you cannot tell me, without googling it, what the Dharmic religions are, than you should not be bashing religion any more than someone who does not know what a Atom is should be bashing physics)
Go to college and study comparative religion, read every scripture there is, read the books on the scholars of religion and it's ideas, and than try again.
Most religions are bound by a common fallacy. Not all of them can be right, but all of them can be wrong--and their common union makes it easy to find out which ones are wrong.
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