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Old 05-15-2010, 03:47 AM
 
Location: Besides the Lord
49 posts, read 64,428 times
Reputation: 18

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If you don't believe in a 6 day creation then you are not using the bible as your source of knowledge on the lord and therefore dont count as a christian.
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Old 05-15-2010, 05:24 AM
 
Location: Texas
1,301 posts, read 2,102,674 times
Reputation: 749
The problem most non-believers have is with fundamentalist who want to inject their brand of Christianity into science classes and government.

I don't think any reasonable person is really that concerned with what somebody's personal beliefs are. The key word there being "personal" beliefs.

Many atheist live in fundamentalist land. A lot of the things said here probably aren't originally directed at people on this forum, but at people they've had encounters with in real life. This forum, in case you haven't noticed, is a place to vent for some.
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Old 05-15-2010, 08:51 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
27,854 posts, read 29,658,564 times
Reputation: 13043
Quote:
Originally Posted by achickenchaser View Post
The problem most non-believers have is with fundamentalist who want to inject their brand of Christianity into science classes and government.
That's right. And the point of the OP is that all Christians are not of the fundamentalist variety, so all Christians should not be accused of "wanting to inject their brand of Christianity into science classes and government." As a Christian, I would not want creationism taught in science classes, and I'm hardly the only one who feels that way.

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I don't think any reasonable person is really that concerned with what somebody's personal beliefs are. The key word there being "personal" beliefs.
You're probably right about that, too. Maybe it's just that until you posted, I didn't see any "reasonable people" giving their input. Conraden seemed to be a whole lot more focused on telling me how stupid my beliefs were than on what the OP was trying to get across. Seriously, why is it not okay for me to proselytize (which I don't - ever) but it's okay for somebody to insult my intelligence?

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Many atheist live in fundamentalist land. A lot of the things said here probably aren't originally directed at people on this forum, but at people they've had encounters with in real life. This forum, in case you haven't noticed, is a place to vent for some.
Oh, yeah. I think I've picked up on that.
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Old 05-15-2010, 12:38 PM
 
3,614 posts, read 3,488,144 times
Reputation: 911
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
A belief in supernatural events is fairly universal across cultures, including cultures that do not have a belief in God as such. Saying that the supernatural is "patently absurd" is a very modern notion, one that not everyone is going to accept. For that matter it's one that not every atheist even accepts. Britain is full of people who believe in ghosts, but not God and Iceland reportedly has many who believe in elves but not God.
And likewise--I find those supernatural claims to be absurd.

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So you're essentially saying your subset of a group (non-theists) which is itself a narrow subset of people gets to say what's absurd or not.
Should we run through a few definitions? Absurd is against common sense, logic, and reason. A dead person coming back from the dead is against all three. The only possible way for a dead person to do such is to 1. not be dead, or 2. not come back to life.

These are not acceptable answers to Christians.

Further supernatural claims, such as ghosts, are also absurd. Ghosts are some kind of supernatural being with conscious awareness of a dead person that presents in the physical world. The problem of course is that consciousness isn't possible with a brain to produce one.

You could say I find the supernatural an absurd claim.

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Worse that your personally view of what counts as absurd is absurd, rather than just your opinion of the absurd. And you guys wonder why people say atheists are arrogant?
Absurd by definition is against reason, common sense, or logic. A long list of supernatural events are absurd by definition. Jesus can come back from the dead after three days only by not actually being dead. Someone who was stabbed and thrown in a tomb is infinitely more likely to have bled significantly, lost consciousness, and into a coma for three days--infinitely more likely than a dead person resurrecting. A natural explanation isn't good enough though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by achickenchaser View Post
The problem most non-believers have is with fundamentalist who want to inject their brand of Christianity into science classes and government.

I don't think any reasonable person is really that concerned with what somebody's personal beliefs are. The key word there being "personal" beliefs.

Many atheist live in fundamentalist land. A lot of the things said here probably aren't originally directed at people on this forum, but at people they've had encounters with in real life. This forum, in case you haven't noticed, is a place to vent for some.
No--a lot of things here are not directed at people, but certain claims and beliefs are not worthy of respect. I find supernatural beliefs to be one such thing--and I've even aggravated an atheist friend with my rantings before.

I find it deplorable we pussyfoot around issues of personal beliefs when they are ridiculous to hold. It is entirely possible to be Christian without accepting the supernatural--but to very few Christians is this acceptable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
That's right. And the point of the OP is that all Christians are not of the fundamentalist variety, so all Christians should not be accused of "wanting to inject their brand of Christianity into science classes and government." As a Christian, I would not want creationism taught in science classes, and I'm hardly the only one who feels that way.
I'm sure you're not, and I thank you for it. I still find supernaturalism ridiculous.

Quote:
You're probably right about that, too. Maybe it's just that until you posted, I didn't see any "reasonable people" giving their input. Conraden seemed to be a whole lot more focused on telling me how stupid my beliefs were than on what the OP was trying to get across. Seriously, why is it not okay for me to proselytize (which I don't - ever) but it's okay for somebody to insult my intelligence?
This isn't about an insult of your intelligence. Smart people do stupid and believe stupid Moderator cut: deleted-insulting all the tim, like my atheist friend believing in Ghosts. He's a smart and witty guy, but his belief in such deserves such ridicule.

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Oh, yeah. I think I've picked up on that.
I'm not venting on you.

Last edited by june 7th; 05-16-2010 at 03:22 PM..
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Old 05-15-2010, 12:54 PM
 
Location: New Orleans
128 posts, read 296,742 times
Reputation: 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Konraden View Post
Would you be willing to say that all Christians accept that Jesus was crucified, killed, and then was resurrected three days after death to walk on the land again?

Would you be willing to say that Jesus performed other miracles, such as feeding several thousand people with little food, or healed the physically blind, specifically through supernatural means?

These claims are absurd. That isn't opinion.

Like I said, if people love Jesus that much--reject the silly-nanny supernaturalism and pick up Jefferson's book.
Miracles are not patently absurd. They are quite logical actually, if you believe in a God. If God exists and he created the world and the laws of nature by which the world works then of course he could temporarily change those laws to perform a miracle. To say that he couldn't would be absurd. Now if you don't believe in God (or gods, or something similar to God that created the world) and think we're all just hear randomly and the Universe just somehow willed itself into being on its own, then miracles might be illogical (although the evolution of us from bacteria into people sitting here talking about having once been bacteria itself seems like a miracles to me).
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Old 05-15-2010, 01:11 PM
 
3,614 posts, read 3,488,144 times
Reputation: 911
Quote:
Originally Posted by vanburen81 View Post
Miracles are not patently absurd. They are quite logical actually, if you believe in a God.
Wishful thinking. "Anything is possible if you believe it to be true." I can't fly no matter how much I believe flapping my arms will make that happen.

Quote:
If God exists and he created the world and the laws of nature by which the world works then of course he could temporarily change those laws to perform a miracle.
That begs the question. Where did God come from.

More to the point, however, is that something existing outside of nature is not philosophically possible in naturalism. God would be likewise bound by nature as we are--making miracles impossible.

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To say that he couldn't would be absurd.
See: wishful thinking.

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Now if you don't believe in God (or gods, or something similar to God that created the world)
The difference between God and "something similar" can be quite grand.

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and think we're all just hear randomly and the Universe just somehow willed itself into being on its own,
Strawman.

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then miracles might be illogical (although the evolution of us from bacteria into people sitting here talking about having once been bacteria itself seems like a miracles to me).
Moderator cut: reference to previously deleted thread.

Last edited by june 7th; 05-16-2010 at 03:23 PM..
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Old 05-15-2010, 01:20 PM
 
Location: New Orleans
128 posts, read 296,742 times
Reputation: 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Konraden View Post
Wishful thinking. "Anything is possible if you believe it to be true." I can't fly no matter how much I believe flapping my arms will make that happen.



That begs the question. Where did God come from.

More to the point, however, is that something existing outside of nature is not philosophically possible in naturalism. God would be likewise bound by nature as we are--making miracles impossible.

See: wishful thinking.



The difference between God and "something similar" can be quite grand.


Strawman.



Moderator cut: Orphaned
Um...I certainly don't think anything is possible by believing it to be true. That sounds like the philosophy of The Secret or some such New-Agism.

Why is God bound by nature if he created it? An artist can add to his drawing or erase from it. I think God created laws of nature, but again, I see no reason why he couldn't termorarily alter them or put them on pasue to perform a miracle. Belief in miracles is widespread throughout the world and only seems impossible from the perspective of a hard core atheist, and even some atheists believe in them.

Last edited by june 7th; 05-16-2010 at 03:24 PM..
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Old 05-15-2010, 02:13 PM
 
3,614 posts, read 3,488,144 times
Reputation: 911
Quote:
Originally Posted by vanburen81 View Post
Um...I certainly don't think anything is possible by believing it to be true. That sounds like the philosophy of The Secret or some such New-Agism.
Your claims that miracles are true if God is true is exactly that line of thought. Believing something to be true (God) allows miracles to happens. Believing myself to be a bird would necessarily allow me to fly.

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Why is God bound by nature if he created it?
And what created God? Let me know when you spot the special-pleading fallacy.

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An artist can add to his drawing or erase from it. I think God created laws of nature, but again, I see no reason why he couldn't termorarily alter them or put them on pasue to perform a miracle.
But we run into problems with this reasoning--specifically the logical incoherence of supernaturalism.

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Belief in miracles is widespread throughout the world
Ad pop?

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and only seems impossible from the perspective of a hard core atheist,
Or any naturalist.

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and even some atheists believe in them.
I doubt it. I challenge you to back that up.
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Old 05-16-2010, 03:27 PM
 
7,991 posts, read 12,204,062 times
Reputation: 4348
This thread is being re-opened, with June's apologies for the delay in doing so.

-But PLEASE: Let's dispense with the 'personal attacks?'

Use "Report Post" function, vs. attacking, okay?


Thanks!



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Old 05-16-2010, 06:15 PM
 
Location: 30-40°N 90-100°W
13,809 posts, read 26,440,660 times
Reputation: 6783
Quote:
Originally Posted by AgoodChristian View Post
If you don't believe in a 6 day creation then you are not using the bible as your source of knowledge on the lord and therefore dont count as a christian.
What do you mean by a six day creation? Are these literal days or days in a divine meaning of the word? If they are literal days how was their length determined before there was a Sun or Earth?

Although I respect your beliefs I think statements like yours explain some of atheists reaction to Christians. You appear to be excluding a vast majority of Christians from being Christian and may be interpreted as anti-science.
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