Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 05-20-2010, 11:57 AM
Status: "Without God, life is tragic and absurd." (set 27 days ago)
 
Location: Free State of Texas
20,367 posts, read 12,647,775 times
Reputation: 2472

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Well . . . I guess that makes me a CHRISTian and not a BIBLEan like you. Which of us is in violation of John 3:18 . . do you think?
John 3:18

18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

You, at least in your understanding of condemnation here in this passage.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-20-2010, 01:03 PM
 
Location: Elsewhere
88,014 posts, read 83,846,650 times
Reputation: 114237
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
This is what sparked my question:



I may have misunderstood what exactly you meant.

How do you personally decide what Scripture is God-inspired & useful to you?
The God-given ability to reason, I suppose, coupled with whether a passage provokes a deeper spirituality.

A Psalm telling of the wonderment of feeling safe within God's care is an example of the latter. My ability to reason tells me that Paul behaving as a rigid, crotchety rule-maker demanding that women don't speak in church or cut their hair has zippo to do with God and more to do with his own patriarchal-society background.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-20-2010, 02:28 PM
Status: "Without God, life is tragic and absurd." (set 27 days ago)
 
Location: Free State of Texas
20,367 posts, read 12,647,775 times
Reputation: 2472
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
The God-given ability to reason, I suppose, coupled with whether a passage provokes a deeper spirituality.

A Psalm telling of the wonderment of feeling safe within God's care is an example of the latter. My ability to reason tells me that Paul behaving as a rigid, crotchety rule-maker demanding that women don't speak in church or cut their hair has zippo to do with God and more to do with his own patriarchal-society background.
I can't base my beliefs on my own reasoning. I am made of flesh & am weak.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-20-2010, 02:43 PM
 
Location: Elsewhere
88,014 posts, read 83,846,650 times
Reputation: 114237
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
I can't base my beliefs on my own reasoning. I am made of flesh & am weak.
Pray about it. God will guide you.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-20-2010, 02:59 PM
Status: "Without God, life is tragic and absurd." (set 27 days ago)
 
Location: Free State of Texas
20,367 posts, read 12,647,775 times
Reputation: 2472
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
Pray about it. God will guide you.
God guiding me is different from using my own reasoning.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-20-2010, 03:26 PM
 
63,419 posts, read 39,666,813 times
Reputation: 7782
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
John 3:18

18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

You, at least in your understanding of condemnation here in this passage.
Well . . . let's test that theory. If we are supposed to "love God and each other" to succeed in being reborn as Spirit upon death . . . as Jesus was . . . and we do not believe in Jesus and His rebirth (resurrection) as Spirit can we succeed? No. Why? We are condemned to fail out of ignorance or refusal to follow the requirement to "love God and each other." What do you think it means?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-21-2010, 09:32 AM
Status: "Without God, life is tragic and absurd." (set 27 days ago)
 
Location: Free State of Texas
20,367 posts, read 12,647,775 times
Reputation: 2472
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Well . . . let's test that theory. If we are supposed to "love God and each other" to succeed in being reborn as Spirit upon death . . . as Jesus was . . . and we do not believe in Jesus and His rebirth (resurrection) as Spirit can we succeed? No. Why? We are condemned to fail out of ignorance or refusal to follow the requirement to "love God and each other." What do you think it means?
I really don't understand you post. Sorry.

Three commentaries on this passage:


Verse 18. He that believeth
As stated before on John 3:16.
Is not condemned
For past sin, that being forgiven on his believing in Christ.
But he that believeth not
When the Gospel is preached to him, and the way of salvation made plain. Is condemned already
Continues under the condemnation which Divine justice has passed upon all sinners; and has this superadded, He hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God, and therefore is guilty of the grossest insult to the Divine majesty, in neglecting, slighting, and despising the salvation which the infinite mercy of God had provided for him.

another...

18. He that believeth on him is not condemned. "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." Faith in Christ is essential to salvation, because it is the power that leads to obedience to him. Is condemned already. "He that believeth not shall be damned." The unbeliever condemns himself. He is lost and refuses to be saved by Christ.

and finally...

18. He that believeth on him is not condemned. "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." Faith in Christ is essential to salvation, because it is the power that leads to obedience to him. Is condemned already. "He that believeth not shall be damned." The unbeliever condemns himself. He is lost and refuses to be saved by Christ.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-21-2010, 11:22 AM
 
63,419 posts, read 39,666,813 times
Reputation: 7782
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
I really don't understand you post. Sorry.
Condemned says NOTHING about the result . . . only the status. You are reading into it whatever "fate" you erroneously believe exists. IOW . . condemned means failure . . . NOT the consequence (or sentence) for it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-21-2010, 02:51 PM
Status: "Without God, life is tragic and absurd." (set 27 days ago)
 
Location: Free State of Texas
20,367 posts, read 12,647,775 times
Reputation: 2472
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Condemned says NOTHING about the result . . . only the status. You are reading into it whatever "fate" you erroneously believe exists. IOW . . condemned means failure . . . NOT the consequence (or sentence) for it.
2 Thess. 1

5All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power 10on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

Matthew 25:46


46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-21-2010, 03:25 PM
 
63,419 posts, read 39,666,813 times
Reputation: 7782
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
2 Thess. 1

5All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power 10on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.
2 Thessalonians is a much later disputed forgery . . . not Paul's.

Norman Perrin writes the following (The New Testament: An Introduction, pp. 119-120):

Second Thessalonians is so like 1 Thessalonians and yet so different that it must be an imitation of 1 Thessalonians written to meet a later situation. Verbal similarities begin with the first verse and continue throughout; yet there are very real theological differences between the two letters, the most important being that of eschatological perspective. In 1 Thessalonians the parousia, the coming of Jesus from heaven as apocalyptic judge and redeemer, is imminent. When Paul speaks of "we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord" (1 Thes 4:15), he clearly expects the event in his own lifetime. But 2 Thes 2:3-12 sets out an elaborate program of what must first happen before that event can occur. Not only has the apocalyptic imagery changed, but the whole tenor of the expectation is different. Another notably non-Pauline feature of the letter is the idea that the judgment of God will be a reward for the persecuted Christians and a persecution of the persecutors (1:5-10). This way of thinking is not only non-Pauline, it belongs to a generation later than Paul's . . .


Udo Schnelle argues (The History and Theology of the New Testament Writings, p. 317):

In contrast to the undisputed Pauline letters
, 2 Thessalonians lacks antithetical formulations, passages in the style of the diatribe, and (with the exception of 2 Thess. 2.5) real questions. Different from the lively, sometimes abrupt argument of Paul's letters, 2 Thessalonians appears as a didactic compositiion with a narrowly limited theme. The manner of expression is favored by 42 words and expressions repreated twice or more. In summary it may be said: 'The use of words, stylistic peculiarities and the train of thought must be seen together. Typical ideas, words and expressions point to a more developed situation in doctrine and forms of Christian life than is seen in 1 Thessalonians and all the other undisputed Pauline letters.'

To this evidence, I would add the consideration that Ephesians contains allusions to the entire Pauline corpus with the exceptions of 2 Thessalonians and the Pastorals. This suggests that 2 Thessalonians, like the Pastorals, wasn't known as part of the Pauline corpus to the author of Ephesians.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:15 AM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top