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In Christian belief, why did Jesus need to die in order to save human beings?
Someone else mentioned this and I have always wondered about it. I was never able to reconcile it.
Couldn't he have come down and waved his hand to save people? Or teach to save people? For that matter, couldn't God have just saved people Himself, without anyone having to die? ETA: To put it another way, what if Jesus hadn't died the way he did? Would people then not be saved? If so, why? (I know some people might be tempted to say he had to die in this manner because it's in the scriptures, but then why is it in the scriptures?)
People talk about being saved *by* Jesus' death and I have thought and thought and thought about it but I literally can't understand why. I don't even mean just from a philosophical POV, I mean...I just don't get what his death had to do with the saving. This isn't a rhetorical question. I'm also not being "touchy-feely" like "Oh how come anyone has to suffer..." or anything like that, I mean I literally don't understand it. Or are we not supposed to understand it? Has anyone else thought about this? What conclusions did you come to?
p.s. I forgot to put in my usual disclaimer...in case anyone here doesn't know me and takes me to be a Christian and thinks I set a trap for them with this question. Anyway...I'm not a Christian because although I do believe in the ideas Jesus is said to have taught, I:
a. Don't believe all the sayings and doings attributed to Jesus, were actually said and done by the person Jesus...it has a very "myth"-type feel to it.
b. Do not believe that Jesus would have been the personification of God, at least no more or less than other people are the personification of God. I think if anything, he was wise, a sage, and wanted to help people.
In Christian belief, why did Jesus need to die in order to save human beings?
Someone else mentioned this and I have always wondered about it. I was never able to reconcile it.
Couldn't he have come down and waved his hand to save people?
In short, because once God makes a rule, even God obeys it.
The punishment for sin is death. Period. This was established way back in Genesis.
The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die." (Genesis 2: 16-17)
But because God is merciful, he commuted mankind's death sentence. He came as one of us. The Creator became man. In Christ, we have the One Man who is worth all men. God placed on Him the punishment for all mankind.
Actually, the best summary of this I've ever found in Paul's epistle to the Romans. Check it out.
b. Do not believe that Jesus would have been the personification of God, at least no more or less than other people are the personification of God. I think if anything, he was wise, a sage, and wanted to help people.
Whenever I hear people say that, I am always remind of this:
I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic -- on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg -- or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to. –- C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity
Mark said it pretty well. God set the penalty for all sins to be death. He paid the price for us. Perhaps what JerZ is looking for (forgive me if I am wrong) is this. If the price of sin is death, why couldn't we pay for our own sin with our own death? I personally dont know how to properly express the reason for this though so I will wait to see what others say.
I don't even know where to start on this. If it were up to little ol' me it would seem that God in His infinate power could have indeed just waived His Cosmic Hand and it all be good.
My dad explained to me that it all has to do with blood sacrifice, the Israelites used to have to sacrifice a sheep or whatever to atone for their sins. God sent His Son as the Ultimate Sacrifice for mankinds sins. Blood had to be shed in order to cleanse our sins. Sounds like a bloodthirsty God to me...but I can't deny my own heart-changing experience with "the Christian God" so this is one thing that I accept as something I will understand better on the other side.
Whenever I hear people say that, I am always remind of this:
I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic -- on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg -- or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to. –- C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity
As I said, I feel a mythology was built up around Jesus as early Christians became more and more impatient with trying to convince people that their way was the right way. That's why we see an evolution from one gospel to the next, with Jesus "saying" more and more and deeper and deeper things, and with the focus going from basically "thou sayest" (that he is the messiah) to proclaiming loudly that he is God and the only way is through him.
Therefore, Lewis' assertion that Jesus must have been either a maniac or 100% God is incorrect. It doesn't allow for the possibility (probability, in my estimation) that much Jesus mythology is borrowed mythology, common sayings of the time attributed to him in order to glorify him to his new followers.
I've heard this argument before and it's not solid...I am sorry. It is by no means a case of "Jesus was either God, a liar or crazy". But that's a subject for another thread.
I don't even know where to start on this. If it were up to little ol' me it would seem that God in His infinate power could have indeed just waived His Cosmic Hand and it all be good.
My dad explained to me that it all has to do with blood sacrifice, the Israelites used to have to sacrifice a sheep or whatever to atone for their sins. God sent His Son as the Ultimate Sacrifice for mankinds sins. Blood had to be shed in order to cleanse our sins. Sounds like a bloodthirsty God to me...but I can't deny my own heart-changing experience with "the Christian God" so this is one thing that I accept as something I will understand better on the other side.
So you mean...it was more to be a recognizable symbol (the sacrifice) to people who saw it happen/heard about it happen? That would make sense.
Hebrews 9:12 "Once for all time He took blood into that most holy place, but not the blood of goats and calves. He took His own blood and with it He secured our salvation forever". verse 22 "In fact, we can say that according to the law of Moses nearly everything was purified by sprinkling with blood. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin".
Why does forgiveness require the shedding of blood? This is no arbitrary decree on the part of a bloodthirsty God. There is no greater symbol of life than blood, blood keeps us alive. Jesus shed His blood, gave His life for our sins so that we wouldn't have to experience spiritual death, eternal separation from God. Jesus is te source life, not death. He gave His own life to pay our penalty for us so that we might live. After shedding His blood for us Christ rose from the grave and proclaimed victory over sin and death.
Hebrews 9:12 "Once for all time He took blood into that most holy place, but not the blood of goats and calves. He took His own blood and with it He secured our salvation forever". verse 22 "In fact, we can say that according to the law of Moses nearly everything was purified by sprinkling with blood. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin".
Why does forgiveness require the shedding of blood? This is no arbitrary decree on the part of a bloodthirsty God. There is no greater symbol of life than blood, blood keeps us alive. Jesus shed His blood, gave His life for our sins so that we wouldn't have to experience spiritual death, eternal separation from God. Jesus is te source life, not death. He gave His own life to pay our penalty for us so that we might live. After shedding His blood for us Christ rose from the grave and proclaimed victory over sin and death.
So then...are you saying we couldn't have been saved without the shedding of the blood? That this was beyond God's capability to achieve without the shedding of blood? This would be really wild because it could mean God is subject to certain natural laws. I don't think that's what you meant but I'm not sure so hopefully you'll be back later to address this.
Or are you saying that it was symbolic on the part of God (even though Jesus literally died)--does that make sense?
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Anyway...I'm not a Christian because although I do believe in the ideas Jesus is said to have taught, I:
