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I believe that when we leave this life, we continue on in another world, the spirit world. Our spriit/souls continue where we left off here, always progressing to either the natural love heavens or the Celestial Heavens and then on to Paradise where God is at the center.
We are love made manifest to experience this life for God as He cannot leave His Paradise and we project those experiences onto God so that He may know of them. All things done in this life will be corrected if wrong thinking has been the life of the soul. Even false beliefs will be corrected and all those who do not believe in a God will also be corrected. I believe that God loved us so much that He sent us here to become individuals with a personality and to experience. His greatest wish is that we love one another but if we don't, He will still love us.
Once we enter the spirit world, we will go to a place that our soul is fitted for. If we harmed others while here, we will reside in a place that fits that condition and progress from that point. If we always strived to love all, without condition, our soul will reflect that and we will be in a brighter place and we progress from there. It all depends on the soul and the intentions of that soul.
you are so on target--i have had my own personal preview and hope that i have earned a spot in heaven--as to the non believers---what a surprise they will have!
We could go around in circles about this, but you don't have any substantial supporting evidence that your conciousness is limited to the brain,
Yes we do, actually. And you can even do the experiment yourself. They do it all the time.
If it is possible to be conscious without a brain, then how is it possible to put people under for surgery?
How is it possible to remove their entire awareness of anything happening to them simply by chemically retarding the impulses and operation of the brain?
If your consciousness exists free and clear of the brain, then you would be fully conscious during surgery, because only your brain would be put under in order to avoid pain, but your consciousness will still exist and be active.
That is the supporting evidence, medical science.
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How would you know what state of counciousness one has in a coma? Perhaps a subconcious realm, or an unearthly realm of energy.
Even if other realms exist, you still have then very definite problem of you not being aware, aka, conscious, of them. You're still faced with the problem of consciousness being a product of brain activity, and when brain activity ceases, there is no awareness.
If you are claiming people can be conscious without a brain, you need to prove it.
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You don't know. Nor do you grasp the concept that much of the energy in the universe is unseen, with humans limited 3 dimensional physical form it would be hard to grasp, but it certainly does not disprove its existence. I would say it would be unlikely that conciousness (thoughts, experiences, knowledge, your soul) DIES, as I believe that would contradict the laws of physics.
No it doesn't. The energy is all accounted for. It returns to an inert state, (matter) which is *not* a violation of the laws of physics.
A violation of the laws of physics is the idea that the energy pattern of your neurons can somehow exist intact without the physical structures and chemical processes of the neurons to create and support them. That is a violation of the laws of physics.
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Do I have proof? No, but neither do you, that's just my belief. So for you to believe that it's NOTHING, yeah that would be cynical.
No, cynical would be giving up the hope of ever educating a believer on the fundamental aspects of human neurology.
The Bible says: "since the creation of the world His (God's) invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made", i.e. nature.
True, and every Indian person knew this before 1492. Every native culture across the globe knew this and expressed that belief within the context of their culture whether they be Comanche, Australian Aborigine, native Hawaiian, or Hutu. No native person ever needed your book or your missionaries.
Despite this, when the Europeans came to our respective lands, they told the natives they were wrong and often killed them or forced them to follow their way at the point of the sword or gun.
Given that it is clear that when people form a belief system concerning the Creator based on what was made, how can it be thought that this would lead to Christianity? Since peoples form belief systems based on what was made within the context of their culture AND if Romans 1:20 (which you quoted) is to be taken as authority on native peoples, then that should lend instant credibility to native belief systems as being "a" truth (as opposed to "the" truth). Therefore, I have no need to become a Christian and Creator is more than good with my traditional Comanche beliefs.
BUT, the problem with using Romans 1:20 to support your position is not only the logical argument I presented above. It is also that you cannot use that verse alone. It must be taken in context, not just within the passage itself, but with the intent of the Epistle to the Romans as a whole. You have to read it in the whole: verses 18-23. Additionally, you have to take it in context of who that epistle was specifically aimed at: the Romans. It cannot be taken to speak of any other people. That whole section, verses 1:18-23, was aimed directly at the idol worship system in Rome and nothing else.
Either way, using it to speak of native peoples does not work.
Last edited by Fullback32; 05-18-2010 at 01:19 PM..
Location: northern Vermont - previously NM, WA, & MA
10,749 posts, read 23,822,981 times
Reputation: 14665
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarmig
Yes we do, actually. And you can even do the experiment yourself. They do it all the time.
If it is possible to be conscious without a brain, then how is it possible to put people under for surgery?
How is it possible to remove their entire awareness of anything happening to them simply by chemically retarding the impulses and operation of the brain?
If your consciousness exists free and clear of the brain, then you would be fully conscious during surgery, because only your brain would be put under in order to avoid pain, but your consciousness will still exist and be active.
That is the supporting evidence, medical science.
Even if other realms exist, you still have then very definite problem of you not being aware, aka, conscious, of them. You're still faced with the problem of consciousness being a product of brain activity, and when brain activity ceases, there is no awareness.
If you are claiming people can be conscious without a brain, you need to prove it.
No it doesn't. The energy is all accounted for. It returns to an inert state, (matter) which is *not* a violation of the laws of physics.
A violation of the laws of physics is the idea that the energy pattern of your neurons can somehow exist intact without the physical structures and chemical processes of the neurons to create and support them. That is a violation of the laws of physics.
No, cynical would be giving up the hope of ever educating a believer on the fundamental aspects of human neurology.
But I keep trying...
I'm talking about possibilities. A subconcious realm, likely simalar to a dream state, or the state of counciousness before you were born, could very well be simalar to a coma state. A celestial realm. Are you denying energy that exists unseen to the physical realm of human life. Look around the universe, it's everywhere.
You still did not prove where the energy is accounted for. You just recite your jibba jabba within the limted 3 dimensional space and physical body in which we reside in, meanwhile hellbent on "educating" that nothing exists after death, no afterlife, no reincarnation, no spiritual life, no celestial beings, just a bleak Nothing, again that is cynical.
Right. Possibilities. Possibilities without evidence that they are probabilities, and certainly no evidence that they are realities.
Quote:
Are you denying energy that exists unseen to the physical realm of human life. Look around the universe, it's everywhere.
Are you claiming there is a realm that is *not* physical and that humans exist and are conscious there?
I'm open the idea. Just give me some evidence. Proof.
Quote:
You still did not prove where the energy is accounted for. You just recite your jibba jabba within the limted 3 dimensional space and physical body in which we reside in, meanwhile hellbent on "educating" that nothing exists after death, no afterlife, no reincarnation, no spiritual life, no celestial beings, just a bleak Nothing, again that is cynical.
This is intro to chemistry stuff. Energy converts to matter, matter to energy.
Do you think when a fire burns all of the energy released by the fire "disappears" into the "subconscious realm"?
Of course not! The energy released by the chemical reaction of fire takes the form of heat and light. That heat and light gets absorbed by matter.... such as your hands being held over the fire. The radiant heat hits your hands and becomes a part of you, warming your hand and relaxing the muscles and tendons in your fingers.
Your body uses that energy to conserve its own, so that it does not have to convert some of it's own matter into energy to provide warmth for your biological processes.
Have you ever wondered why the head is the part of the body that generates the most heat, even though it has no major muscles?
I wonder where all that radiant energy could come from? Surely it couldn't be from all of the electrons that are ripped apart and expended in the chemical processes of your brain?
Location: northern Vermont - previously NM, WA, & MA
10,749 posts, read 23,822,981 times
Reputation: 14665
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarmig
Right. Possibilities. Possibilities without evidence that they are probabilities, and certainly no evidence that they are realities.
Are you claiming there is a realm that is *not* physical and that humans exist and are conscious there?
I'm open the idea. Just give me some evidence. Proof.
This is intro to chemistry stuff. Energy converts to matter, matter to energy.
Do you think when a fire burns all of the energy released by the fire "disappears" into the "subconscious realm"?
Of course not! The energy released by the chemical reaction of fire takes the form of heat and light. That heat and light gets absorbed by matter.... such as your hands being held over the fire. The radiant heat hits your hands and becomes a part of you, warming your hand and relaxing the muscles and tendons in your fingers.
Your body uses that energy to conserve its own, so that it does not have to convert some of it's own matter into energy to provide warmth for your biological processes.
Have you ever wondered why the head is the part of the body that generates the most heat, even though it has no major muscles?
I wonder where all that radiant energy could come from? Surely it couldn't be from all of the electrons that are ripped apart and expended in the chemical processes of your brain?
Yes I am claiming the human existence can exist outside the realm of the physical human body. I was not a physics nor a chemistry major so sorry I can't back the agument up molecule by molecule. If you are open to that then why are you so adament on proving the non existence of spiritual form? Your agument is all irrational logic and no heart and is limited to simple physical human functions. Physical life is so short, and conciousness, spituality, and religion is so strong, it seems hard to fathom that after my last breath, that it's well.... NOTHING. Pretty sad and pessimistic concept. Go ahead and rant about your existence of NOTHING. We could go in circles...., you have made your point, but have stated nothing factual about the existence or non existence of the afterlife. So we can agree to disagree, leave room for for others to comment on the afterLIFE
Last edited by Champ le monstre du lac; 05-18-2010 at 03:25 PM..
I noticed with the above posts again and again 'believe', 'believe', 'believe'
One who believes in God, will mostly believe in the afterlife; while the atheist will usually deny the afterlife; and if he believes or does not believe in the afterlife, what will the advantage be to him; because he already have denied God Most Gracious?
The belief in the afterlife is part of the belief in the unknown, the invisible or the fore-future: all that being absent from sight and perception at the present.
Such are the afterlife, Paradise, Hell, angels, souls and spirits ...etc.
Yes we do, actually. And you can even do the experiment yourself. They do it all the time.
If it is possible to be conscious without a brain, then how is it possible to put people under for surgery?
How is it possible to remove their entire awareness of anything happening to them simply by chemically retarding the impulses and operation of the brain?
If your consciousness exists free and clear of the brain, then you would be fully conscious during surgery, because only your brain would be put under in order to avoid pain, but your consciousness will still exist and be active.
That is the supporting evidence, medical science.
Even if other realms exist, you still have then very definite problem of you not being aware, aka, conscious, of them. You're still faced with the problem of consciousness being a product of brain activity, and when brain activity ceases, there is no awareness.
If you are claiming people can be conscious without a brain, you need to prove it.
No it doesn't. The energy is all accounted for. It returns to an inert state, (matter) which is *not* a violation of the laws of physics.
A violation of the laws of physics is the idea that the energy pattern of your neurons can somehow exist intact without the physical structures and chemical processes of the neurons to create and support them. That is a violation of the laws of physics.
No, cynical would be giving up the hope of ever educating a believer on the fundamental aspects of human neurology.
But I keep trying...
Moderator cut: edit First ALL the energy is NOT accounted for. We are only capable of measuring less than 5% of the energy/matter in the universe . . . only the baryonic forms. Moderator cut: edit
Your "measured" neurological activity can neither locate nor account for our conscious "Self" . . . so until it does . . . back off your high horse. Logic and reason coupled with a philosophical view of the extant knowledge and speculation easily supports the requirement for and explanatory power of a universal field as the substrate within which our conscious "Self" forms and resides as a composite form of pure energy . . . most likely the most ubiquitous form . . . dark energy. So strut your neurological materialist views a little more humbly, scarmig . . . there is no justification for any arrogance or certainty whatsoever . . . unless you have some personal experiential basis for believing you do not exist except as an illusion of individual neural activity.
Last edited by Miss Blue; 05-19-2010 at 07:48 AM..
Reason: deleted the personal attacks
Let me first start by saying there is no right or wrong answer to this, so please don't troll. But what do you feel happens in the afterlife?
A life review? a greeting of loved ones? The hand of god? The crossing over into the the light? Jesus, Buddha, Muhammed or any particular profit? Heaven or hell or neither? Lights out, ashes to ashes, nothing at all? There are endless possibilities.
After life, comes death... what comes after death? Probably more death...
We could go around in circles about this, but you don't have any substantial supporting evidence that your conciousness is limited to the brain, nor do you have any concrete proof that it is realistic. Your evidence is just as vague as mine, as nobody could prove in concrete form until we actually pass. How would you know what state of counciousness one has in a coma? Perhaps a subconcious realm, or an unearthly realm of energy. You don't know. Nor do you grasp the concept that much of the energy in the universe is unseen, with humans limited 3 dimensional physical form it would be hard to grasp, but it certainly does not disprove its existence. I would say it would be unlikely that conciousness (thoughts, experiences, knowledge, your soul) DIES, as I believe that would contradict the laws of physics. Do I have proof? No, but neither do you, that's just my belief. So for you to believe that it's NOTHING, yeah that would be cynical.
Moderator cut: edit
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
We are only capable of measuring less than 5% of the energy/matter in the universe . . . only
Your "measured" neurological activity can neither locate nor account for our conscious "Self" . . . so until it does . . . back off your high horse. Logic and reason coupled with a philosophical view of the extant knowledge and speculation easily supports the requirement for and explanatory power of a universal field as the substrate within which our conscious "Self" forms and resides as a composite form of pure energy . . . most likely the most ubiquitous form . . . dark energy. So strut your neurological materialist views a little more humbly, scarmig . . . there is no justification for any arrogance or certainty whatsoever . . . unless you have some personal experiential basis for believing you do not exist except as an illusion of individual neural activity.
[mod edit]
Dark Energy is not at all related to any human physical form.Dark Energy is the unknown extant force that is pushing galaxies apart. That's it. Matter itself is not pushing itself apart. Dark Matter is ordinary matter we deal with now--that doesn't emit any significant luminescence detectable by current technology.
We are dark matter. We don't create enough luminescence at 40,000 parsecs to be seen by *any* type of telescope.
Moderator cut: edit There is sufficient evidence to localize consciousness the brain. You've been exposed as to why this is insufficient for you--your God requires consciousness to be without matter to support it--your universal consciousness. Unbased and without evidence.
Last edited by Miss Blue; 05-19-2010 at 07:50 AM..
Reason: removed WTF
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