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I hear it all the time when I debate the separation of church and state.
"Surely you think that including the 10 commandments would be good laws"
What makes you think that the ideas of killing people, lying, cheating on your spouse, honoring your mother and father, etc, only came into being with the 10 commandments?
All of those were laws of the land LONG before Moses was even a twinkle in Abrahams eye.
Its not like Judaism and Christianity have the market cornered on morals. Chinese and Egyptian moral codes existed long before Abraham was even born.
Seriously, we didn't need organized religion to give us a moral compass, we were born with one. They may or may not signal the existence of a creator, but it sure as hell rules out that the one religion thing is right.
I hear it all the time when I debate the separation of church and state.
"Surely you think that including the 10 commandments would be good laws"
What makes you think that the ideas of killing people, lying, cheating on your spouse, honoring your mother and father, etc, only came into being with the 10 commandments?
All of those were laws of the land LONG before Moses was even a twinkle in Abrahams eye.
Its not like Judaism and Christianity have the market cornered on morals. Chinese and Egyptian moral codes existed long before Abraham was even born.
Seriously, we didn't need organized religion to give us a moral compass, we were born with one. They may or may not signal the existence of a creator, but it sure as hell rules out that the one religion thing is right.
Perhaps this is the ultimate goal of religion, to keep these people from committing atrocities because they fear the wrath of their deity. But then why are so many atrocities committed in his name.
Perhaps if they spent more time really trying to get to know other people on a personal a basis, vs. being first judgmental purely solely on whether they believed in the same deity or not.
I am an Atheist, and I treat my fellow man better than some self-proclaimed christians I know. The ethics of reciprocity sometimes refereed to as the golden rule is a basic concept, especially to anyone that cares about others and not wallowing in their own feelings of self importance and grandeur.
Now when self proclaimed christian rants on about how Atheist could not possibly have a moral compass, let us apply the ethics of reciprocity.
It's easy to see to me that a materialist or, One bent upon the materialism of the world, would find the simple explanation that people are affected to be moral just because They are afraid of the consequences. The ten commandments gives the consequences for merely being thoughtless at the people One lives with.
On the other hand, what kind of Idealism are we posting here? The ten commandments don't scare me.
It's easy to see to me that a materialist or, One bent upon the materialism of the world, would find the simple explanation that people are affected to be moral just because They are afraid of the consequences. The ten commandments gives the consequences for merely being thoughtless at the people One lives with.
On the other hand, what kind of Idealism are we posting here? The ten commandments don't scare me.
Well, the first one (thou shalt have no other god before me) scares me. That single commandment along with its Islamic counterpart has been responsible for thousands of years of oppression, genocide, and intolerance.
It is also proof positive that this county (USA) and its laws are NOT based in any way on the ten commandments or the Bible, as the 1st commandment and the 1st amendment are polar opposites and mutually exclusive of one another. There's nothing in the Bible that supports or lends itself to FREEDOM and democracy - only theocratic dictatorship.
I hear it all the time when I debate the separation of church and state.
"Surely you think that including the 10 commandments would be good laws"
What makes you think that the ideas of killing people, lying, cheating on your spouse, honoring your mother and father, etc, only came into being with the 10 commandments?
All of those were laws of the land LONG before Moses was even a twinkle in Abrahams eye.
Its not like Judaism and Christianity have the market cornered on morals. Chinese and Egyptian moral codes existed long before Abraham was even born.
Seriously, we didn't need organized religion to give us a moral compass, we were born with one. They may or may not signal the existence of a creator, but it sure as hell rules out that the one religion thing is right.
I hear it all the time when I debate the separation of church and state.
"Surely you think that including the 10 commandments would be good laws"
What makes you think that the ideas of killing people, lying, cheating on your spouse, honoring your mother and father, etc, only came into being with the 10 commandments?
All of those were laws of the land LONG before Moses was even a twinkle in Abrahams eye.
Its not like Judaism and Christianity have the market cornered on morals. Chinese and Egyptian moral codes existed long before Abraham was even born.
Seriously, we didn't need organized religion to give us a moral compass, we were born with one. They may or may not signal the existence of a creator, but it sure as hell rules out that the one religion thing is right.
There is some confusion is what you have written.
Morals in and of themselves are relative. And the golden rule seems to be universal. All people tend to have morals of differing degrees. These morals though are relative to the community and are probably taught from invitro on. So, to say that people are moral regardless of the 10 commandments is redundant and moot.
The morality of humans probably stems back to the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil that Adam and Eve ate. So this knowlege of Good and Evil resides in every human since the begining, not just since the time of Moses.
But what happens when laws are introduced like the ten commandments. I think this reinforces morality. That there are eternal punishments to accepting or denying good morals. This reinforcement applied to the population would tend to increase the morality even of the children from invitro on up. The teachers of the law would teach the men and woman of a community who would teach their children both directly and indirectly.
So, to say that man can be moral without God I think is true. I think that where the ten commandments are taught it is easier for man to be moral. However being moral does not get one into heaven. But, being moral can point to what is right to do to get to heaven. In that being moral can point to God.
Morals in and of themselves are relative. And the golden rule seems to be universal. All people tend to have morals of differing degrees.
These morals though are relative to the community and are probably taught from invitro on. So, to say that people are moral regardless of the 10 commandments is redundant and moot.
Your use of the language is confusing. The statement is not "moot", rather it's a confirmation and rebuttal to the many posts here that have insultingly claimed that atheists must, ergo, have no morals or standards without God. Hardly a "redundant" statement!
The morality of humans probably stems back to the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil that Adam and Eve ate. So this knowledge of Good and Evil resides in every human since the beginning, not just since the time of Moses.
So.... you think our cultural mores, culturally evolved over the millenia as a set of rational functionalities that limit general mayhem, all came from that fairy tale about two hungry, white Anglo-Saxon hominid fruit-eaters standing around debating whether to eat an apple or not? You still don't see that tale as an obvious teaching metaphor for people's inability to resist evil? Amazing!
But what happens when laws are introduced like the ten commandments. I think this reinforces morality.
Exactly, but it's also Christianity seeing and taking the opportunity to insidiously insert itself into our lives, as if they came up with this stuff and that we need their interpretation! The common and huge misunderstanding of the casual religious thinker is that those Commandments are responsible for all good behavior. We see and hear that all the time!
That there are eternal punishments to accepting or denying good morals. This reinforcement applied to the population would tend to increase the morality even of the children from invitro on up. The teachers of the law would teach the men and woman of a community who would teach their children both directly and indirectly.
Yes, but it's too bad that Christian "teachers" have to teach the "eye for an eye!" perspective as a means by which they achieve obedience, because it's then later extended into many or all aspects of a Christian's life. Bad!
Better to teach personal responsibility, the law of rational rights, and the common-sense reality of not going around doing things at the expense of others' rights and property.
So, to say that man can be moral without God I think is true.
Yup. I, and all my morally upstanding, ethical and honest friends are living proof of that, to be sure.
Well, the first one (thou shalt have no other god before me) scares me.
Why would a god, who doesn't want you to have any gods before him, even suggest that their are other gods, if he believes he is the only god?
The god that wrote the 10 commandments knows that there are other gods, but since he believes that he is the right god to believe in, he tries to force you to believe in him to get to heaven.
If there was at least one other god out there it would be like a child asking his mom if he can have some candy and she says no and gives a reason why, but then goes and asks dad and he says yes and gives his reason why.
The kid is probably thinking: " Mom (one god) says no and Dad (the other god) says yes.....which do I believe is telling the truth?
Dad says yes to the candy and you get what you wanted, but right away. Maybe you didn't know that your Mom had a surprise cake that the child had never tried, waiting to be eaten after dinner. Either way, in the end, you get the same result...the kid gets a yummy treat.
So why would it be any different than believing in one god over another. The end result would be the same. Even if the kid hadn't asked for any sweets because they had never heard of the new cake, didn't mean they were not going to get to eat it in the end.
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Being "Good" without God's Guiding Hand! √√√√√
