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Old 05-25-2010, 09:49 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
3,331 posts, read 5,938,717 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
20 years in prison, mandatory, for selling cocaine...5 times as much as the average sentence of an armed robber...doesn't seem equitable either. But the drug dealer knows that going in. So how can he complain when he gets caught, and that punishment befalls him?
20 years for selling a very harmful and illegal substance versus an ETERNITY of torment for not thinking or believing the right way. Yes, this makes sense.

The Catholic concept of Purgatory or Judaism's Gehenna (the place of purification where most sinners spend up to a year before release) actually makes more sense as an analogy. Hell, not so much.

 
Old 05-25-2010, 11:51 AM
 
12,595 posts, read 6,612,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville Native View Post
Though my reply will be off topic, your analogy must be pointed out as outrageously wrong. The drug dealer is making addicts of hundreds, perhaps thousands of people, including children, and creating an environment where the addicts must turn to armed robbery to support their addiction.

To the illogical mind, your analogy may seem logical, but that is because on this topic you also fail to look at the reality and the facts. Indicates to me that your irrational support of your beliefs expressed here effect other aspects of your life and reasoning also.

The commandments themselves.

#1 - No other gods before me - well what would one expect from a sadistic megalomaniac egotistical deity? This gets you eternity in hell? And you try to compare that to a drug dealer or an armed robber? Dude, your priorities are really skewed.

You have to go half way through the list to get to the first suggestion of how you should treat other people, as the first half is all about the mandatory kowtowing to the megalomaniacal deity. Sick nonsense like taking his name in vain, keep the sabbath holy........ and all worthy of a trip to hell.

Actually believing that must already be hell
Rules are rules...and laws are laws. Lots of things I think are HORRIBLE (like abortion) are deemed perfectly legal...and lots I don't see as at all wrong, that are deemed a crime. My analogy holds relative to the subject matter--Hell is excessive punishment.

What REALLY must be hell...would be to feel compelled to spend time posting on a forum, debating people about persons and things I didn't even believe existed. Very strange.
 
Old 05-25-2010, 11:56 AM
 
2,884 posts, read 5,915,464 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
20 years in prison, mandatory, for selling cocaine...5 times as much as the average sentence of an armed robber...doesn't seem equitable either. But the drug dealer knows that going in. So how can he complain when he gets caught, and that punishment befalls him?

So... God's ability to mete out justice is no better than the shysters that populate the US judicial system?
 
Old 05-25-2010, 12:11 PM
 
12,595 posts, read 6,612,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fullback32 View Post
20 years for selling a very harmful and illegal substance versus an ETERNITY of torment for not thinking or believing the right way. Yes, this makes sense.

The Catholic concept of Purgatory or Judaism's Gehenna (the place of purification where most sinners spend up to a year before release) actually makes more sense as an analogy. Hell, not so much.
Wow, you guys are disappointing me. Up until about a week ago I saw the Atheists as a more intelligent than average group.

My analogy was about the knowledge of the perpetrator of the punishment for the offense. I even supported the contentions made by noting the disparity of lesser punishment for a greater offense. But that wasn't my point...and that was very clear.

I'll reword so, hopefully, you'll "get it": If you KNOW there is a law that carries an very strict, mandatory, sentence...even in the face of greater crimes carrying less penalty...understand, that if you violate that law, you WILL get that punishment...regardless of it's "fairness", in your opinion.
 
Old 05-25-2010, 12:19 PM
 
12,595 posts, read 6,612,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eanassir View Post
When atheists and idolaters encounter Hell, then they cannot deny it, but will suffer its burning forever.

And it will be said to them: This is Hell which you denied in your Worldly life.
I posted this in another thread. Very appropriate here too:
As The Cap'n said to Luke: "What we've got here is...failure to communicate. Some men, you just can't reach......which is the way he wants it...well, he gets it. I don't like it any more than you men.
 
Old 05-25-2010, 12:30 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
3,331 posts, read 5,938,717 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
Wow, you guys are disappointing me. Up until about a week ago I saw the Atheists as a more intelligent than average group.

My analogy was about the knowledge of the perpetrator of the punishment for the offense. I even supported the contentions made by noting the disparity of lesser punishment for a greater offense. But that wasn't my point...and that was very clear.

I'll reword so, hopefully, you'll "get it": If you KNOW there is a law that carries an very strict, mandatory, sentence...even in the face of greater crimes carrying less penalty...understand, that if you violate that law, you WILL get that punishment...regardless of it's "fairness", in your opinion.
I'm not an atheist and there's no need to be a wise guy.

First of all, I don't "know" that there is any such penalty as espoused by Christianity. In my nation's traditions (Comanche), there is no such thing as hell and my people were on this land practicing our way long before the first padre set foot here. For may of us, we see no reason to change. Addtionally, there is too much disparity between Christianity and its parent faith, Judaism, to accept that such a place exists. The infusion of Persian duality as well as Hellenistic influences created hell. The ancient Israelites and even the Jews of the day wouldn't even know what you are talking about when mentioning the Christian notion of hell.

Last edited by Fullback32; 05-25-2010 at 01:28 PM..
 
Old 05-25-2010, 12:38 PM
 
Location: Metromess
11,798 posts, read 25,098,612 times
Reputation: 5219
GldnRule: The point is that the alleged punishment for the 'offense' is excessive, whether the 'perpetrator' knows about it beforehand or not. Insulting the intelligence of atheists in general does nothing to help your case.
 
Old 05-25-2010, 01:24 PM
 
16,294 posts, read 28,438,103 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
Rules are rules...and laws are laws. Lots of things I think are HORRIBLE (like abortion) are deemed perfectly legal...and lots I don't see as at all wrong, that are deemed a crime. My analogy holds relative to the subject matter--Hell is excessive punishment.

What REALLY must be hell...would be to feel compelled to spend time posting on a forum, debating people about persons and things I didn't even believe existed. Very strange.

Again your analogy is so far from any reality, guess the desperation is kicking in as the first 5 are pure bunk all about the deity, least he not have his feelings hurt, not about how man should treat his fellow man, that is sad, and the fact you don't see that is even sadder. Of course these are not from any god, but from men, and to put such priority on the deity vs. their fellow men, really is sad, to pretend to follow and view the first 5 as punishable by a one way ticket to hell, is utterly absurd.

I think the hell is defending the undefendable to the point that you turn your desperation to attack someone else for their ideas. But not your fault, that is the doctrine of belief systems that find their strength in hatred and intolerance.

And I debate these people to point out the absurdity of their beliefs, and to defend myself, and my country from them, as they work to start wars, spread hatred of those with different beliefs, insert their delusions into the laws that govern everyone, substitute utter nonsense from the bible into science textbooks our children are taught from, the rewriting of fairly recent history because a president was an atheists.

And the fact you react so, yet have gldnrule as your handle here makes the whole thing laughable, cause that is so not what you practice, much less the belief system you are trying to defend
 
Old 05-25-2010, 01:37 PM
 
12,595 posts, read 6,612,898 times
Reputation: 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarmig View Post
So... God's ability to mete out justice is no better than the shysters that populate the US judicial system?
FINALLY, a really good post that had me LOL. Sweet!

Hey, maybe that's where they came up with "mandatory sentencing guidelines"...it was the worldly judicial system poorly mimicking what "organized religion" falsely claims how God is. But then it would be more like--Life at hard labor for ANY offense.

Look, it's amusing to go back and forth on this... but...there IS NO HELL. The story of Hell is the same as the story of Noah and the Ark...they are just metaphors...illustrations. Not to be taken literally. Why anyone argues it beyond what amuses them is beyond me.

What REALLY surprises me...is the Fundies, that claim it's literal and the actual way it is...but still violate "the rules". Who would do that if they REALLY believed in eternal torment, both physical and mental, beyond anything anyone ever even imagined, let alone experienced?!!
 
Old 05-25-2010, 01:57 PM
 
12,595 posts, read 6,612,898 times
Reputation: 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville Native View Post
Again your analogy is so far from any reality, guess the desperation is kicking in as the first 5 are pure bunk all about the deity, least he not have his feelings hurt, not about how man should treat his fellow man, that is sad, and the fact you don't see that is even sadder. Of course these are not from any god, but from men, and to put such priority on the deity vs. their fellow men, really is sad, to pretend to follow and view the first 5 as punishable by a one way ticket to hell, is utterly absurd.

I think the hell is defending the undefendable to the point that you turn your desperation to attack someone else for their ideas. But not your fault, that is the doctrine of belief systems that find their strength in hatred and intolerance.

And I debate these people to point out the absurdity of their beliefs, and to defend myself, and my country from them, as they work to start wars, spread hatred of those with different beliefs, insert their delusions into the laws that govern everyone, substitute utter nonsense from the bible into science textbooks our children are taught from, the rewriting of fairly recent history because a president was an atheists.

And the fact you react so, yet have gldnrule as your handle here makes the whole thing laughable, cause that is so not what you practice, much less the belief system you are trying to defend
Look, I practice the Golden Rule just fine. We just have a different sense of humor.

Some people find Don Rickles funny...others find him annoying. I think he is one of the funniest ever.

I DON'T believe hell even exists...let alone excessive. Even the concept is preposterous. I'm not REALLY defending it at all. I guess "deadpan humor" doesn't go over too well around here. I should have learned that by now...sorry about that. Sheeeesh!
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