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Old 05-22-2010, 11:05 PM
 
Location: Bayou City
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It is impossible to apprehend any of these universals in their purest form, much less "prove" their existence. Yet the entire foundation of geomathematical thought rests upon the assumption of their existence through imperfect worldly representations.

What prevents us, then, from assuming the existence of God in the same fashion? What would make the assumption of God's existence any less valid than, say, the assumption that undefinable points exist in an undefinable space which are connected through undefinable lines which exist in numbers infinitely undefinable? Couldn't one perhaps make the argument that God "exists" in the same manner as these universals, the imperfect worldly representation of this existence being human consciousness itself?
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Old 05-22-2010, 11:09 PM
 
Location: San Diego
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My assumption is that god does NOT exist. Based upon logic and fact and scientific discovery, it's a far, far more intelligent assumption than assuming the supernatural.
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Old 05-23-2010, 12:50 AM
 
Location: Bayou City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Occam's Bikini Wax View Post
My assumption is that god does NOT exist. Based upon logic and fact and scientific discovery, it's a far, far more intelligent assumption than assuming the supernatural.
Do you assume that geometric elements exist? Numbers? If so, how do you justify this assumption given that no amount of scientific discovery or logic has ever been able to account for their existence either? Couldn't their essential nature just as well be defined as supernatural?
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Old 05-23-2010, 01:02 AM
 
61 posts, read 71,052 times
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Originally Posted by MrSykes View Post
Do you assume that geometric elements exist? Numbers? If so, how do you justify this assumption given that no amount of scientific discovery or logic has ever been able to account for their existence either? Couldn't their essential nature just as well be defined as supernatural?
Lemme get this straight; You're asserting that geometric elements and numbers don't exist? Triangles and the number three are "supernatural"?

Have you taken a geometry class? I don't see anything supernatural about points, lines, planes, or numbers. What am I missing here?
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Old 05-23-2010, 01:29 AM
 
Location: Bayou City
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Originally Posted by ACEsydney View Post
Lemme get this straight; You're asserting that geometric elements and numbers don't exist? Triangles and the number three are "supernatural"?

Have you taken a geometry class? I don't see anything supernatural about points, lines, planes, or numbers. What am I missing here?
What you're missing is precisely the fact that none of these things really exist in the natural realm, save as representations. Sure I can draw an extended mark on a page and call it a line, but what results is merely a representation of a line, not the "line" itself. Likewise, we can symbolize the number 3 with specific characters, or with objects in a group. But neither of these representations sufficiently captures the number "3" itself. Pure lines and numbers have no physical dimensions.
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Old 05-23-2010, 01:59 AM
 
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So, because lines, points, planes, ect. can't be represented perfectly in nature, we should believe in God? Your logic is very flawed.
Should we then believe in unicorns, Santa Clause, or other mythical figures based on your logic?
You stand to make a better argument that geometry and numbers don't exist than God does.

BTW, numbers are represented in nature perfectly all the time.
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Old 05-23-2010, 03:17 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
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Point, line plane and number are human conventions. Just as is the calendar, language, morality and the god - concept. At most they are a human take on the conditions that obtaion Out There, at least, they would cease to be concepts if we suddenly vanished overnight.

Or, at least, if it is felt that is not a faie assessment, I should like to see the reasons to suppose otherwise.
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Old 05-23-2010, 04:33 AM
 
Location: Western Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Point, line plane and number are human conventions. Just as is the calendar, language, morality and the god - concept. At most they are a human take on the conditions that obtaion Out There, at least, they would cease to be concepts if we suddenly vanished overnight.

Or, at least, if it is felt that is not a faie assessment, I should like to see the reasons to suppose otherwise.
Numbers are a representation of an actual situation. If there are three oranges hanging from an orange tree, whether or not there is a human being to see them, they are still there, in that quantity. Sure, the 'sound' of the word 'three' would not be used, but the fact of a certain quantity of oranges exist would not change.

From an existential standpoint, this can be summed up by saying Existence precedes Essence.

God is different. The existence of such a being is, like the existence of the number three, independent of human beings. Since there is no evidence of such a being, existence does not exist.

Whether or not we are here to perceive any of this makes no difference. God exists, or not. Groups of three exist, or not. What we call either of these concepts has no influence over that first, primary fact of existence/non-existence.

Or, to sum it all up, if a tree falls in the woods, yes, it still makes a noise.
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Old 05-23-2010, 05:23 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
49,493 posts, read 14,934,812 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbrains View Post
Numbers are a representation of an actual situation. If there are three oranges hanging from an orange tree, whether or not there is a human being to see them, they are still there, in that quantity. Sure, the 'sound' of the word 'three' would not be used, but the fact of a certain quantity of oranges exist would not change.

From an existential standpoint, this can be summed up by saying Existence precedes Essence.

God is different. The existence of such a being is, like the existence of the number three, independent of human beings. Since there is no evidence of such a being, existence does not exist.

Whether or not we are here to perceive any of this makes no difference. God exists, or not. Groups of three exist, or not. What we call either of these concepts has no influence over that first, primary fact of existence/non-existence.

Or, to sum it all up, if a tree falls in the woods, yes, it still makes a noise.
Quite valid observations. My point is that, while the passage of time is real, in that changes occur, the method used to mark them and the names given to the elements are human inventions.

The same applies to oranges and apples, whether in what they are or how many they are.

The same applies to 'God' or gods. The reality of nature and it's processes is there, but the names and anthropomorphic concepts that humans apply exist only as long as we exist.

If you want to argue that they represent something more than a mythologising of natural processes, do feel free. The argument had been going on long enough and nothing had been proven yet.
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Old 05-23-2010, 09:22 AM
 
Location: Bayou City
2,987 posts, read 4,818,986 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ACEsydney View Post
So, because lines, points, planes, ect. can't be represented perfectly in nature, we should believe in God? Your logic is very flawed.
Should we then believe in unicorns, Santa Clause, or other mythical figures based on your logic?
You stand to make a better argument that geometry and numbers don't exist than God does.

BTW, numbers are represented in nature perfectly all the time.
You're making unnecessary leaps. The underlying problem is whether non-existent geometric and numerical entities warrant more credence than an equally nonexistent God. If they do, what is it about the nature of these entities that so distinguishes it from the nature of God as to make them worthy of such credence? What makes the assumption of the existence of Point (as a transcendental ideal whose nature-correlate is a random dot) any different than the assumption of the existence of God (whose nature-correlate is human consciousness and intelligence)?
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