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You are clearly proud of your semantic terpsichory, Hueff . . . but I don't know what you think you have won. Semantics is a philosopher's game . . . but theism always has a trump card in it . . . for God NOTHING is impossible . . . no matter how absurd or contradictory or illogical or . . . whatever . . . it may appear to us puny mortals. In any case . . . such semantic nonsense has NO BEARING on the EXISTENCE of God . . . only on the "beliefs about" which will always be in dispute. Continue to enjoy your presumed victory, tho, Hueff . . . it's a free country.
Problem is, all the 'God' books are written in terms which humans are supposed to be able to identify with... so unless you want to drift off into the realms of fantasy/science fiction, in which case any abstract thought, any scenario imagined by the individual, can in theory, be the truth, then you should restrict yourself to the dictionary definition of those terms as the lens through which we look at this subject.
If the words 'power' and 'love' when attributed to 'God', mean something entirely different from the general definition of the word, then we have no foundation to work from as we can make any word in the Bible mean whatever we want it to mean.
If the Bible defines God as 'love' then that word is put there a reason, for humans to understand, otherwise God could say he is jjihugbvgv and it would still mean the same thing. He is supposedly saying that in the Bible for our benefit, so why say it at all if we are not supposed to comprehend it??
I agree with Heuff...looking at it from a Biblical standpoint, God cannot be both all powerful and all loving.
Problem is, all the 'God' books are written in terms which humans are supposed to be able to identify with... so unless you want to drift off into the realms of fantasy/science fiction, in which case any abstract thought, any scenario imagined by the individual, can in theory, be the truth, then you should restrict yourself to the dictionary definition of those terms as the lens through which we look at this subject.
If the words 'power' and 'love' when attributed to 'God', mean something entirely different from the general definition of the word, then we have no foundation to work from as we can make any word in the Bible mean whatever we want it to mean.
If the Bible defines God as 'love' then that word is put there a reason, for humans to understand, otherwise God could say he is jjihugbvgv and it would still mean the same thing. He is supposedly saying that in the Bible for our benefit, so why say it at all if we are not supposed to comprehend it??
I agree with Heuff...looking at it from a Biblical standpoint, God cannot be both all powerful and all loving.
The God books don't tell you that people are not going to die and suffer...
this is unbelievable....good thing I'm checking in.
If anything God books offer solace in living without malice ....affording the
obvious difficulties in collective harmony in man...
.....So we'll scratch that off the list , as of right now....thats really reaching
Ringwielder...
Hueff I guess avoided my last post...where it is very plain in my offered analogy as follows.....
...if something is all powerful, we cannot say...it cannot be....anything it wants to be...Hueff suggestion would require proof that God is not all loving ...and proof that God is all powerful..from..an all knowing all powerful perspective...
The bottom line in my view is, we are not all knowing, therefore we do not know... the full scope of this love where ....an after-life is well in play with the meaning.....
(Hueff.... says...Playing that trump card is akin to burning down the whole house just so you don't lose the card game.)
Blue says....You forgot the Heading to note...
God is all Loving and All Powerful.... Eternal Existence.
There...now the house doesn't have to burn down . You cannot evaluate
the Love from this perspective in our beginning to the totality of Eternal Existance...can you.?
Besides....you really want something that comes easily....what a drag.
I feel kinda good today.....this has been a really good thread
Hueff I guess avoided my last post...where it is very plain in my offered analogy as follows....
The nice thing about logic is that it allows one to reach into all possibilities, even possibilities we are unaware of and could not comprehend.
For example, people often like to say that we don't know what purposes god has for our pain or that our minds can't comprehend how god uses our earthy pain in the eternities. OK, because in my logic, we can use the phrase "god's purpose" as a variable that can take on any value (even values we can't comprehend or imagine), all that is important is that god knows what his purpose for our pain is.
Now, here comes the logic. If God is all-powerful, he could accomplish whatever he purposed to achieve through our suffering, through a means that does not require us to suffer. I don't know how, I don't need to know how because god could do it if he is all powerful. If you say god can't (because of some supposed rule like in order to have this this must exist), then god is not all-powerful, because an all-powerful god can make the rules and the original concepts to be anything he wants.
There, I just performed a logical operation on a variable that could take any value. It doesn't matter what value you put in there (or god puts in there), it still works. [There is one exception. If God's express purpose for our suffering was to have us suffer, then he couldn't have us suffer without having us suffer as that would be a logical contradiction. But, if his express purpose was to have us suffer as both the means and the end goal, then he is not all-loving]. Any other purpose, an all-powerful god could accomplish without our suffering. Remember he would not be limited to how our world is now, he could design any world or no world at all to accomplish his designs.
I am done talking with you about this. I lost a lot of respect for you in how you dealt with our earlier debate, and I don't want to get into anything with you right now.
Last edited by Hueffenhardt; 02-28-2011 at 10:09 PM..
Fortitude in life is Honorable. Any other approach to the promotion of ill-will towards healthy
hope in the substance and reality of mans spirit would be....repeats... as nothing in thread 18 pages had any significance....nothing. Largely as I'm sure you know, man believes in an all powerful loving God in negotiating his Spirit. This is true.
PS Its not my doing things didn't go your way......or did they?
The notion that God cannot be all powerful and all loving is ridiculous. God is a God of Fire and of Love. He can "be" and "is"anything He chooses to be and He does it without our pee wee brains attempting to philosophically make Him out to be anything resembling us outside of His image (Jesus) .God loves His creation (all) and those who abide by His word and he destroys evil (on His timeline not ours) He desires those who do not to seek Him and obey (to get with it.) He IS power by definition and His powerfulness exceeds anything we moronical humans can fathom. He will in the next perhaps hundred years put on an exhibition of His power by destroying "radical" Islam and the antichrist who with a 13 nation confederation try to destroy Israel (they are all toasted in Meggedio before they can bend over and kiss their butts goodbye!) God (a very powerful God ) wipes them off the earth. Armageddon and then after His "powerful 1000 year reign" will again destroy the invaders of His "beloved Israel at the real final battle of Gog and Magog. People making statements about His so-called conradictory love vs power theme are fools albeit well intended fools. God is full of mysteries and we as mere creation haven't a clue how He rolls. His word tells of His power and love it would be a good idea to study His word and seek Holy Spirit understanding by praying or it.
Das (Get prepared for (excuse the term) major ass kicking ...and continued love of God as we will have a ringside seat to major events on the horizon.)
Last edited by DASULAR17; 02-28-2011 at 11:25 PM..
Reason: formating
Now, here comes the logic. If God is all-powerful, he could accomplish whatever he purposed to achieve through our suffering, through a means that does not require us to suffer. I don't know how, I don't need to know how because god could do it if he is all powerful.
Glad that you emphasized "logic" here.
If freewills won't be able to sin, logically, it is either there's no freewill or there are no true choices. When real choices are in front of true freewills, people will choose differently. As a result, people will divide.
The notion that God cannot be all powerful and all loving is ridiculous. God is a God of Fire and of Love. He can "be" and "is"anything He chooses to be.
Well, I have shown that logically he can't be both all-powerful and all-loving. So, if you are saying that he can be anyway, you are in essence saying that he can be illogical, and if that is what you are saying then, then I have no argument with you. But, conceding that god can be illogical is a major concession that has huge ramifications on anything you think you may understand about god.
If freewills won't be able to sin, logically, it is either there's no freewill or there are no true choices. When real choices are in front of true freewills, people will choose differently. As a result, people will divide.
You are asking for a circular square to be made.
I believed I covered this one way earlier in the thread.
I am saying that god cannot be both all-powerful and all-loving. You haven't yet said enough to challenge my position. I think I know where you are going with this, but spell it out. You need to show how, for instance, god could not give us freewill without pain. The all-loving part means that god would not want us to suffer needlessly; he could still be all-loving if the suffering wasn't needless, like a parent giving their kid a shot to make them immune against a horrible disease. My argument is that all suffering is needless to an all-powerful god. We are talking about pain and suffering here, which you haven't mentioned, yet in your post. I have a pretty good idea where you are going, but I want you first to bring pain into your proposition so that I can show you what I'd do with it.
Last edited by Hueffenhardt; 03-01-2011 at 06:18 AM..
I believed I covered this one way earlier in the thread.
I am saying that god cannot be both all-powerful and all-loving. You haven't yet said enough to challenge my position. I think I know where you are going with this, but spell it out. You need to show how, for instance, god could not give us freewill without pain. The all-loving part means that god would not want us to suffer needlessly; he could still be all-loving if the suffering wasn't needless, like a parent giving their kid a shot to make them immune against a horrible disease. My argument is that all suffering is needless to an all-powerful god. We are talking about pain and suffering here, which you haven't mentioned, yet in your post. I have a pretty good idea where you are going, but I want you first to bring pain into your proposition so that I can show you what I'd do with it.
Hi Hueffenhardt Been reading your post and I understand your reasoning but I don't think you are carrying it out far enough.
Is God all powerful? Yes if you are a believer you know he created everything and is always in control of his creation. If you are not a believer it is a moot point.
The real question is if God is all powerfull and all loving how can he put us through the pain that we go through? Is it neccessary? The answer is YES it is neccessary.
I will give you an example. Lets say you are a parent and you love your child. You are well off so you can afford to give your child anything he needs. Being a loving parent you don't want him hurt so you hire people to take care of him. They carry him around so he cant fall and hurt himself.
They feed him. Of course no contact with other kids who might hurt him. No sports or games or runnung or playing, he might get hurt or suffer emotional pain. No correction if he does do something wrong because it would hurt. I know it seems ubsurd but is this a life you would wish for your child? A pampered spoiled child who can't even feed himself.
God is creating us in his image. I trust Him so I know the way he is doing it is the best way. Like a parent, which I am, he will let us learn by making mistakes, we will be chastized when we do wrong. Sometimes it may seem cruel to us, the child, but the parent, God, is alway around and ready to catch us when it is neccessary and pick us up when we fall, but he does let us fall, just like I let my children fall when learning to walk, or ride a bike, but I was always there to pick them up.
Could he have chosen anothe way? Maybe But I trust him so this is the best way.
So yes God is all powerful and he is powerful enough to let us learn and mature in the best way which also makes him all loving.
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