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Value cannot be perceived without a contribution in perseverence
If that is true, it is only because god made it that way, when he could have just as easily made the perception of value tied to something else such as 'love' or anything really. But, he chose to tie it to persevering through suffering, when he did not have to.
Whatever good thing you think suffering brings us, it did not have to be that way to an all-powerful god. He could have made it such that we could achieve every good thing without suffering. If you say that he could not, that suffering is the only way to (fill in the blank), then you are saying that link between suffering and (fill in the blank) is greater than god because he can't change it, so god is not all-powerful. Who then created this link between suffering and (fill in the blank).
Let me ask you a question: How would you view a father who allows his child to follow his own path (read: make his own mistakes and learn from them).
I see that as a sign of love, but I guess that you would only see this father as a sadist because he allows his child to hurt and be hurt.
If you are talking about a human father, then allowing his child to follow his own path is exactly what the father should be doing. Yes, the child will hurt himself in the process, but as a human father, the child hurting himself while learning to be independent is unavoidable.
If your version of god is like this human father, such that humans hurting themselves while learning to be independent, then you acknowledge god is not all-powerful, because you are saying the relationship between pain and learning is inseparable even to god. If you agree with that then you agree with me that if god is all-loving, he is not all-powerful.
But, if on the other had, you want to believe that god is all-powerful, then you must believe he has power over the link between pain and learning, such that he could have made life such that on can learn to be independent without suffering pain, and the learning would be exactly as effective. That may seem like a foriegn idea to us, but with an all-powerful god nothing is impossible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D
So you could say that my theory is that a universe without suffering also is a universe without individualism (or freedom).
If it is true that the link between suffering and individualism/freedom is inseparable. Then god cannot break that link, therefore he is not all-powerful. If, however, god is all-powerful, then he can break the link between suffering and individualism/freedom, and permit there to be individualism/freedom with out suffering. So, if god could have it either way individualism/freedom with or without suffering, if he were all-loving he would not choose for us to suffer needlessly when there was another way that was just as effective.
If it is that way it is only because god made it that way, when he could have done otherwise. So, he chose for us to suffer, when he could have created a world in which we could have experienced all of the same growth and accomplishment without it. That is sadistic. Remember if god is all-powerful, it cannot be that suffering is a better teacher than anything else, because it is god who created what would be the best teacher. If he were all-loving, he would have chosen something else to be the best teacher instead of suffering.
I truncated your post as my answer is the same for all parts.
Yes, he could have done things different. But because he could does not equate to he had to. I do not understand why God(swt) sees pain as being necessary for our development, but I can see the effects of it. Us humans have the ability for our greatest Charity by doing so in the face of pain. We can see people who in spite of pain, and real danger suffer excruciating pain and great risk to sacrifice for the good of others such as pulling a child out of a burning building. When we know pain exists and life is full of hardships we have the opportunity to develop our greatest love; the unselfish love for others in spite of the risks and how we overcome our own desire to protect ourselves from harm or pain.
Like I said I do not know the reason, but I have seen the results of what some people have done and how they gave up all personal concepts of self preservation to protect others, even total strangers. We humans are greatly touched by the pain of others. A hard lesson to learn and even more difficult to imagine a person doing with no regard for their own comfort. We can all say we would run into a burning building to save a child, but we do not really know if we would if we never face it.
I wish God(swt) had used more gentle approaches in the lessons of life I faced. Yet when I look back I have gained much by having gone through intense pain and hardships.
I do not know why God(swt) chose as he did. but, I have seen the results of it and have no complaint even if I do not understand or even like the method.
He is loving enough to have wanted beings with which to share His creation...
He is powerful enough to have created us...
He is loving enough to give us free will...
He is powerful enough to resist the urge to interfere... ***
(*** Unless He is asked very sincerely through prayer and is tuned into us at the time of our prayers. You may say, "But why isn't He tuned into me at all times?" Well, if you aren't tuned into Him at all times, why should He stay tuned into you at all times?)
I am beginning to feel like a broken record. I suppose if you aren't going to understand this when I tell it to another poster, you aren't likely to understand this when I tell it to you directly.
If free will and suffering is inseparably connected, then god is not all-powerful because he can't unlink free will and suffering. If, however, he is all-powerful then he could create a design such that one could have free will without suffering and all of his purposes and goals and reasons would still be accomplished. If you say that he could not then you believe god is not all-powerful.
So, if god is all-powerful, he could have two designs, both equally accomplishing every goal and purpose he has, one with free will and suffering and one with free will and no suffering. If god were all-loving, he would not choose to have us suffer needlessly when he could accomplish all the same ends without us suffering. So, an all-loving god would choose the design with free will and no suffering.
Since, we have suffering, god is either not all-powerful, not all-loving, or both.
Again, the finite mind (you) cannot grasp the infinite mind (God). Stop insisting on a God you can understand.
Stop hiding behind that. Logic allows oneself to reason with variables that one does not know the value of. One can plug any value into the variables and the reasoning still works. We don't have to know what the values of the variables are to know that the logic can handle any "reasons, purposes, needs, or goals" an infinite god might have.
To me an all-loving God could only give his creation free will (thus abandon total control or being omnipotent).
Arguing that a God who offers his creation free will (thus also allows suffering) can only be a sadist is the same as saying that God cannot be all powerful because he can't make 4+4 be 5 a logic conclusion.
If there is an immutable connection between free will and suffering, that not even god can break (i.e., you can't have free will without suffering), then god is not all-powerful because he cannot change that relationship. It begs the question, who then created these two concepts and the relationship between them that is so powerful, not even a god god unlink them?
If, on the other hand, god is all-powerful, then he can create any concept he wishes and create any linkage between any concepts he wishes. He could in fact tie free will to things we can't even imagine, and still receive the same results. If you say he could not achieve the same results then you are saying there is something special about the relationship between free will and suffering; and I ask who created that special relationship. God would not have to tie free will to suffering, but he did anyway, even though there was no advantage to tieing free will to suffering. So, he created a design with suffering when he did not need to. An all-loving god would not do that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D
FYI passing on knowledge without suffering is possible; I call it programming.
Man can program a machine and fill it with knowledge but it would still be dumb.
Well, you can call it whatever you want. But, an all-powerful god could give us the ability to acquire knowledge without suffering and have it be exactly as effective and without downloading it into our brains. If you say he could not, because there is some special relationship between knowledge and suffering that god cannot duplicate with knowledge and anything else, then you are saying god is not all-powerful, and I have to ask, what had the ability to create the concepts knowledge and suffering and create a special bond between the two that not even god could change or duplicate with knowledge and something else?
Yes, he could have done things different. But because he could does not equate to he had to. I do not understand why God(swt) sees pain as being necessary for our development, but I can see the effects of it.
You don't have to and neither do I, to follow the rational argument. All that matters is that god understands why he sees pain as necessary for our development.
OK, god has set things up such that pain does something to help us develop. We don't have to know what that something is, just that god set things up such that pain does something to help us develop. If god is all-powerful, he could have just as easily set things up such that 'X' does that exact same something to help us develop, such that pain and 'X' are equally effective at doing that something to help us develop.
If you claim that god could not set it up such that 'X' and pain are equally effective because pain has special attributes that 'X' doesn't have because it is not pain, then you are saying that god is not all-powerful because there is a special relationship between pain and that something that it does to help us develop that God cannot alter, nor can he replicate. If that is your belief, that is your belief and I am ok with that, as long as you recognize that your god is not all-powerful.
But, it does beg the question who created that special relationship between pain and that something it does to help us develop. If you claim, god created that special relationship, then god could create that special relationship between another concept 'X' and the same something pain does to help us develop. Which means god is all-powerful and can create to different models of earthlife, one with and one without pain, that accomplish the exact same things equally as well. Now, if the only thing that is different between the two models is pain, and both models accomplish all the same things, we have eliminated all possible reasons for selecting one model over the other except for the fact that one maodel has pain and the other does not. Remember, both models accomplish all the same things, so there is no opportunity for any other unknown reason to exist. This makes pain completely superfluous and unnecessary, because the exact same outcomes and purposes can be accomplished without it in every detail.
If god were all-loving, he would select the model that does not cause pain, because there would be no reason for the pain when everything can be accomplished without it. An all-loving god would not want us to suffer needlessly.
Huff has put it 16 ways from Sunday and it wasnt that hard to understand to begin with.
How about believers make a deal?
Just admit it and agree to stop calling your god omnipotent or all-loving, one or the other
Stop hiding behind that. Logic allows oneself to reason with variables that one does not know the value of. One can plug any value into the variables and the reasoning still works. We don't have to know what the values of the variables are to know that the logic can handle any "reasons, purposes, needs, or goals" an infinite god might have.
Huff has put it 16 ways from Sunday and it wasnt that hard to understand to begin with.
How about believers make a deal?
Just admit it and agree to stop calling your god omnipotent or all-loving, one or the other
Take your pick.
It isn't one or the other-- it's both!
Huff can reiterate himself 100 or 1,000 times, doesn't matter. Makes no diffference.
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So you could say that my theory is that a universe without suffering also is a universe without individualism (or freedom).
