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People create suffering far more than God does.You can't blame.God only wants what is best for the earth.Most people use most of there energy in selfish and unproductive ways.Why should God approve of this.Maybe Jesus was sent asent when God realized the mess the human race was in for,for people to have a choice.The world does not revolve around people, people revolve around the world.We are not innocent bystanders but products of our. own actions and thing.So is Satan real?A rather obvious answer is of course.God is not to be blamed for suffering at all.
Maybe Jesus was sent asent when God realized the mess the human race was in for,for people to have a choice.
You don't think that omniscience would have shown him that such would be the case before he even started then? I mean, how did your god suddenly 'realise' that the world was in a mess? Wouldn't he have foreseen the result even before day one?
People create suffering far more than God does.You can't blame.God only wants what is best for the earth.Most people use most of there energy in selfish and unproductive ways.Why should God approve of this.Maybe Jesus was sent asent when God realized the mess the human race was in for,for people to have a choice.The world does not revolve around people, people revolve around the world.We are not innocent bystanders but products of our. own actions and thing.So is Satan real?A rather obvious answer is of course.God is not to be blamed for suffering at all.
God has nothing to do with earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, cancer, etc?
God has nothing to do with earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, cancer, etc?
Who made the choice to hand control of this planet to Satan; God or Adam? Why do you want to hold a God, you don't believe in, so responsible for everything and don't want to see that human beings are facing the consequences of human choices. It is almost as though you are determined to place all the blame on God because then you don't have to be accountable for your choices. Any sane individual understands that earthquakes, tsunamis, and tornados are not the direct result of an individual decision, but they are the consequences of the individual choice that Adam made. You also mentioned cancer, and that sometimes falls under the same category, but many times it is much closer to the direct result of an individual's choice, such as a person who chooses to smoke.
You my friend have a choice to make, do you want live as God originally intended for you to live, or do you want to live in world corrupted by sin? God is going to restore this world to the perfection He originally intended, but in order to do that, He has to destroy the sin that has ravaged this planet. He has warned all, that the planet will be destroyed, and He has made provision for all to be saved, but He has left the choice in your hands.
You don't think that omniscience would have shown him that such would be the case before he even started then? I mean, how did your god suddenly 'realise' that the world was in a mess? Wouldn't he have foreseen the result even before day one?
1 Peter 1:20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.
Revelation 13:8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.
Not only did God foresee the needs of the world, He had a plan prepared from day one.
OK, I have been swamped at work lately, so haven't visited this forum for a while. I don't have anything more to say in this thread that I have not said before, many many times. If you are still not convinced of my central argument, then we are at an impasse and I am prepared to just agree to disagree.
Thank you all for participating in this thread. I have said my piece on this subject and I'm done. I'll see you all around in other threads on this forum.
Who made the choice to hand control of this planet to Satan; God or Adam? Why do you want to hold a God, you don't believe in, so responsible for everything and don't want to see that human beings are facing the consequences of human choices. It is almost as though you are determined to place all the blame on God because then you don't have to be accountable for your choices. Any sane individual understands that earthquakes, tsunamis, and tornados are not the direct result of an individual decision, but they are the consequences of the individual choice that Adam made. You also mentioned cancer, and that sometimes falls under the same category, but many times it is much closer to the direct result of an individual's choice, such as a person who chooses to smoke.
You my friend have a choice to make, do you want live as God originally intended for you to live, or do you want to live in world corrupted by sin? God is going to restore this world to the perfection He originally intended, but in order to do that, He has to destroy the sin that has ravaged this planet. He has warned all, that the planet will be destroyed, and He has made provision for all to be saved, but He has left the choice in your hands.
First, my talk of "God" is only hypothetical because no I don't believe in any. But a lot of people do, and the problem is most peoples' idea of god is contradictory and somewhat nonsensical (as this thread exhibits). Most theists would say God created everything, but somehow is only responsible for all the good things and has nothing to do with all the bad things of this world. It doesn't make much sense.
Second.. Seriously? If "God" intended for the world to be without sin, he would not have made the rule that the world would become corrupted by sin when Adam eats the fruit. If you say it's not God's fault, but you believe the Adam and Eve story, then tell me, who do you believe put this evil fruit tree in the garden of Eden and gave it the potential to condemn all of humanity forever?
OK, I have been swamped at work lately, so haven't visited this forum for a while. I don't have anything more to say in this thread that I have not said before, many many times. If you are still not convinced of my central argument, then we are at an impasse and I am prepared to just agree to disagree.
Thank you all for participating in this thread. I have said my piece on this subject and I'm done. I'll see you all around in other threads on this forum.
Sorry you feel as you do Hueffenhardt, and sorry you were never able to see the flaws in your central arguement. You want to limit concepts like "all powerful" and "all loving" to simply all that you or I can understand at this moment in time. Do you honestly feel that you know enough about ALL there is to know in the universe to make a definitive judgement about a being who actually does know ALL there is know in the universe? Your arguement was never constructed to try to show that He can't be both, it was conceived to try and assert that He is neither, and therefore nonexistant or simply irrelevant. You don't want Him to exist because you want to be the sole arbiter of right and wrong in your life.
The other critical flaw in your arguement is made clear in your final thoughts of your OP:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hueffenhardt
Poster 1:
1) We are eternal beings in a temporary human form. We chose our lives and knew what it entailed. Thus the suffering may be pointless, but something we wished to experience. A loving God stays out of it as it was our choice.
My reply to "1": An all-powerful god controls all the variables. He can set up whatever rules for learning or growth or knowledge acquisition that he wants. He doesn't have to build a reality where suffering exists. Anything that he could accomplish with suffering, he could acomplish without suffering, so there was just no need to create or permit a reality to continue to exist that he did not create (if one wants to go there) a reality that has suffering.
If he had created a reality without suffering (all of which is needless), the option would not have been available for us to choose. We could still do whatever we want without being placed in a situation in which we could choose suffering. Choices are always constrained by what is available or possible; we can only choose among possibilities that exist in reality and an all-powerful god could create any kind of reality he wanted to. So, why would an all-loving god want to create a reality with suffering when it is completely unnecessary?
2) Free agency. God believes in our right of choice and interfering to remove the consequences of actions would in a way limit our free agency. These actions of course may not have been your own, or may be indirect.
My reply to "2": An all-powerful god can control not only whether or not we are spared consequences, but can determine what the consequences will be. So, he could still allow us to choose and experience consequences, while making sure that none of the consequences include suffering.
The reason a parent doesn't want a child to touch a hot stove is because the reality is that they will get burned. If the reality was that they would not get burned then there would be no need for them to keep the child from touching the hot stove. Sin is bad because it leads to sufferring, if it did not lead to sufferring, sin wouldn't be bad. Your arguement is flawed because it is not based on reality. You want to be free to make wrong choices but have those choices not be wrong. It is simply one big contradiction of words.
You have this missconception that reality is something that is created. Reality is simply that which actually exists. God is the ultimate reality in the universe, in that He has always existed. If there is anything that God cannot do, it is that He cannot cease to exist. He cannot cease to be real. Suffering happens on this earth because of those who tried to deny reality and make choices contrary to God's instruction.
First, my talk of "God" is only hypothetical because no I don't believe in any. But a lot of people do, and the problem is most peoples' idea of god is contradictory and somewhat nonsensical (as this thread exhibits). Most theists would say God created everything, but somehow is only responsible for all the good things and has nothing to do with all the bad things of this world. It doesn't make much sense.
What doesn't make sense is the way in which people refuse to want to take responsibility for their choices. It is as if you were to give me a brand new car with detailed instructions on how to keep it running forever, and I were to ignore those instructions, and never change the oil, but then I wanted to blame you and hold you responsible for giving me a car that needed to have the oil changed. Did you tell me to change the oil to prevent the car from dying? Yes you did. But it is still your fault that the engine siezed? How does that make any sense?
Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend
Second.. Seriously? If "God" intended for the world to be without sin, he would not have made the rule that the world would become corrupted by sin when Adam eats the fruit. If you say it's not God's fault, but you believe the Adam and Eve story, then tell me, who do you believe put this evil fruit tree in the garden of Eden and gave it the potential to condemn all of humanity forever?
God did not make an arbitrary rule that if Adam ate the fruit the world would be corrupted by sin simply because He said so. Adam's sin was disobeying God. There was nothing intrinsic in the fruit that made it bad. It is not as though the fruit itself was poisned with sin. The fruit was simply that which God told Adam/Eve not to eat. Once they were told not to eat it, they were given the power of choice. To obey God or disobey God. In choosing to disobey God, they chose to let sin into their lives and destroy that which God had made perfect.
What doesn't make sense is the way in which people refuse to want to take responsibility for their choices. It is as if you were to give me a brand new car with detailed instructions on how to keep it running forever, and I were to ignore those instructions, and never change the oil, but then I wanted to blame you and hold you responsible for giving me a car that needed to have the oil changed. Did you tell me to change the oil to prevent the car from dying? Yes you did. But it is still your fault that the engine siezed? How does that make any sense?
God did not make an arbitrary rule that if Adam ate the fruit the world would be corrupted by sin simply because He said so. Adam's sin was disobeying God. There was nothing intrinsic in the fruit that made it bad. It is not as though the fruit itself was poisned with sin. The fruit was simply that which God told Adam/Eve not to eat. Once they were told not to eat it, they were given the power of choice. To obey God or disobey God. In choosing to disobey God, they chose to let sin into their lives and destroy that which God had made perfect.
We are not talking about suffering that is a result of a person's own choices. There is suffering that is clearly not caused by human actions, such as natural disasters. All you keep saying is that it's not God's fault, it's peoples', which obviously doesn't address the problem of non-human-caused suffering.
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